BoxRec

Thought this would be fun.
Al Perno started an interesting thread about undeserving heavyweights who got title shots.
I started thing about good heavyweights who never got a title shot at a major title. Some git shots at minor titles, (and may have even won) but never a major one. There were "Colored heavyweight champions, White Hope titleholders as well.

Some of these guys weren't really ducked by the champion. They may have simply been in a strong era and there even better contenders ahead of them.

Anyway here is my Top 40. Sure I am overlooking somebody. Let me know and who is way too high and too low.

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Wills
3. Joe Jeannette
4. Sam McVey
5. Peter Jackson
6. Eddie Machen
7. Ray Mercer
8. Ernie Schaaf
9. Elmer Ray
10. Jimmy Bivins
11. Razor Ruddock
12. Harold Johnson
13. George Godfrey
14. Larry Gains
15. Clarence Henry
16. Joe Goddard
17. Harry Greb
18. Fred Fulton
19. Gunboat Smith
20. Tommy Morrison
21. Rex Layne
22. Leotis Martin
23. Thad Spencer
24. Luther McCarty
25. Joe Choynski
26. Frank Slavin
27. Turkey Thompson
28. Bob Baker
29. Johnny Risko
30. Bob Cleroux
31. Peter Maher
32. Carl Morris
33. Nino Valdes
34. Bob Satterfield
35. Bernard Mercado
36. Mac Foster
37. George Godfrey (Old Chocolate)
38. Denver Ed Martin
39. Jim Coffey
40. Duane Bobick

Langford
Wills
Jeanette
Mcvey
Jackson
Bivins
Johnson
Godfrey


Names that stand out for me from this list.

Did Johnson never get a shot? I may never have paid attention to that due to the fact that he fought titlists....just not when they held titles I guess.


Wait...this is exclusively about major HW titles right? In that case Never mind about my Johnson statement.

South Africa's very dangerous but somewhat inconsistent Kallie Knoetze....guessing politics got in the way as well a certain Gerrie Coetzee.
Knoetze had his moments though and a few very decent wins.

Ike Ibeabuchi is the other one I can think of...but unstable Ike somewhat cooked his own goose rather than the shot not coming his way.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun.
Al Perno started an interesting thread about undeserving heavyweights who got title shots.
I started thing about good heavyweights who never got a title shot at a major title. Some git shots at minor titles, (and may have even won) but never a major one. There were "Colored heavyweight champions, White Hope titleholders as well.

Some of these guys weren't really ducked by the champion. They may have simply been in a strong era and there even better contenders ahead of them.

Anyway here is my Top 40. Sure I am overlooking somebody. Let me know and who is way too high and too low.

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Wills
3. Joe Jeannette
4. Sam McVey
5. Peter Jackson
6. Eddie Machen
7. Ray Mercer
8. Ernie Schaaf
9. Elmer Ray
10. Jimmy Bivins
11. Razor Ruddock
12. Harold Johnson
13. George Godfrey
14. Larry Gains
15. Clarence Henry
16. Joe Goddard
17. Harry Greb
18. Fred Fulton
19. Gunboat Smith
20. Tommy Morrison
21. Rex Layne
22. Leotis Martin
23. Thad Spencer
24. Luther McCarty
25. Joe Choynski
26. Frank Slavin
27. Turkey Thompson
28. Bob Baker
29. Johnny Risko
30. Bob Cleroux
31. Peter Maher
32. Carl Morris
33. Nino Valdes
34. Bob Satterfield
35. Bernard Mercado
36. Mac Foster
37. George Godfrey (Old Chocolate)
38. Denver Ed Martin
39. Jim Coffey
40. Duane Bobick

Alp, first of all let me just say I love your lists. You've covered just about everyone here. I love your inclusion of some guys who really deserved a shot like Schaaf, Baker and Valdes, but I think I would have tried to find room for Lem Franklin, Jeff Merritt and Ike Ibeabuchi. But that's splitting hairs. The only one I would really question was your inclusion of Eddie Machen. He did get a shot at the vacant WBA title. That's a pretty good one, but then again, back in the day it probably was laughed at with Ali in charge at the time. It probably wasn't taken very seriously. Good list though.

Didn't Ike just get into trouble, sort of goofing his chances? I think the money would have forced that fight....had he only had some self discipline.

I will take issue with two old timers on the list

Joe Choynski - the best thing on his resume are two newspaper draws with Jeffries and (Sailor Tom) Sharkey; but throughout he always seemed to be positioned just below the top contenders and couldn't rise above it; the flow of his record/career suggests that each time he was ready to step up to the 'contender' spot he would drop a fight to a recognizable name. I get the feeling if he had gotten a shot someone else would have been stepped over.

Gunboat Smith - he only had one real championship run 1912 - 1914 (the rest of his resume is very spotty) but by mid 1914 he was losing to (the few good) fighters he had beaten earlier. Sam Langford and Battling Levinsky - of course his biggest argument is a PTS win over Willard in 1913 - A 1916 shot (which of course was very unlikely because it was Willard) could have been his time but he had a so-so 1915 and a weak 1916 (not that Moran was a top contender.)

He got burnt being stuck 'in the time of Willard,' but not sure he was ever positioned to get a shot even with a busier champion; he looked to be at his best when Johnson was in exile; so maybe I am wrong, maybe that was his time; he got cheated out of his shot because of the whole Johnson mess. I retract, leave Gunboat on the list.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun.
Anyway here is my Top 40. Sure I am overlooking somebody. Let me know and who is way too high and too low.
7. Ray Mercer
(...)
20. Tommy Morrison

Mercer and Morrison fought for WBO title. We may debate if we should consider WBO to be a "major title" at the early 90s for Morrison, but Mercer got another shot at it (against Wlad) around 10 years later when it was definitely there.

Great list Alp

1) Sam Langford
2) Luther McCarty
3) Larry Gains
4) Bob Satterfield
5) Earl Walls

gregor wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun.
Anyway here is my Top 40. Sure I am overlooking somebody. Let me know and who is way too high and too low.
7. Ray Mercer
(...)
20. Tommy Morrison

Mercer and Morrison fought for WBO title. We may debate if we should consider WBO to be a "major title" at the early 90s for Morrison, but Mercer got another shot at it (against Wlad) around 10 years later when it was definitely there.

No it really was not a major title in 2002. The WBO was still considered a fringe title. If a fighter only held the WBO title at the time, he was considered a serious title holder. Hardly anyone considered Klitschko the "real" champion; almost everyone considered Lewis the champion at the time. The Klitschko-Mercer fight got little attention because nobody cared.

scartissue wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun.
Al Perno started an interesting thread about undeserving heavyweights who got title shots.
I started thing about good heavyweights who never got a title shot at a major title. Some git shots at minor titles, (and may have even won) but never a major one. There were "Colored heavyweight champions, White Hope titleholders as well.

Some of these guys weren't really ducked by the champion. They may have simply been in a strong era and there even better contenders ahead of them.

Anyway here is my Top 40. Sure I am overlooking somebody. Let me know and who is way too high and too low.

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Wills
3. Joe Jeannette
4. Sam McVey
5. Peter Jackson
6. Eddie Machen
7. Ray Mercer
8. Ernie Schaaf
9. Elmer Ray
10. Jimmy Bivins
11. Razor Ruddock
12. Harold Johnson
13. George Godfrey
14. Larry Gains
15. Clarence Henry
16. Joe Goddard
17. Harry Greb
18. Fred Fulton
19. Gunboat Smith
20. Tommy Morrison
21. Rex Layne
22. Leotis Martin
23. Thad Spencer
24. Luther McCarty
25. Joe Choynski
26. Frank Slavin
27. Turkey Thompson
28. Bob Baker
29. Johnny Risko
30. Bob Cleroux
31. Peter Maher
32. Carl Morris
33. Nino Valdes
34. Bob Satterfield
35. Bernard Mercado
36. Mac Foster
37. George Godfrey (Old Chocolate)
38. Denver Ed Martin
39. Jim Coffey
40. Duane Bobick

Alp, first of all let me just say I love your lists. You've covered just about everyone here. I love your inclusion of some guys who really deserved a shot like Schaaf, Baker and Valdes, but I think I would have tried to find room for Lem Franklin, Jeff Merritt and Ike Ibeabuchi. But that's splitting hairs. The only one I would really question was your inclusion of Eddie Machen. He did get a shot at the vacant WBA title. That's a pretty good one, but then again, back in the day it probably was laughed at with Ali in charge at the time. It probably wasn't taken very seriously. Good list though.

Why would you try to find room for Merritt? Hed have to try pretty hard. The guy did absolutely nothing to warrant even a rating in the top ten much less a title shot.

Regardless of however brief in '73, he did hold a world rating. And in answer to Alp's question of who else to include or who was too low or too high, I would place Merritt in the lower echelons of this list and lose Eddie Machen who did fight for the WBA title (no matter how dubious) which should exclude him, Harry Greb, who was not a heavyweight and Bernardo Mercado whom I never thought much of.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

gregor wrote:No it really was not a major title in 2002. The WBO was still considered a fringe title. If a fighter only held the WBO title at the time, he was considered a serious title holder. Hardly anyone considered Klitschko the "real" champion; almost everyone considered Lewis the champion at the time. The Klitschko-Mercer fight got little attention because nobody cared.

I completely agree Lewis (and not Wlad) was the recognized champion... the title however is about major titles, not fighting The Champ.

And since you suggested WBO to be still a fringe title - do you really consider it worse at that time than WBA (with Ruiz as its champion) or IBF (title won by Byrd against ancient Holyfield)?

The WBO was still considered a fringe title in 2002. Really nobody cared about it at t he time. Often the other titles were pretty lame; No I don't consider Ruiz or Byrd to be real champions. Form the 1970s on, sometimes a fighter with a WBA or WBC title really had no legitimate claim to a title and some sometimes he did. Sometimes it was murky. Boxing politics being as it was.
However, in 2002, literally nobody was taking the WBO seriously.

I think we have to look back at what people thought at the time; not using revisionist history.

Same with Ernie Terrell. Outside of the WBA, literally nobody (including his immediate family) took Terrell's title seriously. I remember as a kid in the 1970s looking up in the encyclopedia, the list of heavyweight champions and Ernie Terrell was not listed. Different record books did not list him. I remember getting a book in 1987, that listed Terrell and being surprised by it.

If (and probably when) the IBO is considered a major title, are we going to retroactively consider all the IBO champions as major title holders?