BoxRec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5YbsN73eOk


Liston beat Machen...but not by much as you can see.

Machen Looks to be the better boxer actually.

Floyd beat Eddie...but not by much.....

Ali knocks them both out twice...... of course 4 KO's and 4 sets of excuses for why it "just wadn't right"

After viewing a few films again regarding Eddie,

Eddie actually looks like he would be a tougher opponent for Ali than either Floyd or Sonny.

BoxBuzz wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5YbsN73eOk


Liston beat Machen...but not by much as you can see.

Machen Looks to be the better boxer actually.

Floyd beat Eddie...but not by much.....

Ali knocks them both out twice...... of course 4 KO's and 4 sets of excuses for why it "just wadn't right"

After viewing a few films again regarding Eddie,

Eddie actually looks like he would be a tougher opponent for Ali than either Floyd or Sonny.

I WATCHED THIS FIGHT A WEEK AGO ON FOXTEL HE COULD FIGHT EDDIE

Machen did give Liston a more competitive fight than most people were. And he really wasn't running away just to survive as is sometimes claimed.

As for Patterson, I thought he beat Machen pretty convincingly. Not sure if I ever saw their entire fight, would have been a while ago anyway. Thought it was pretty much thought that Patterson won handily.

This fight gave Ali confidence that he could beat Liston.

I do believe if he had to choose he'd probably RATHER tangle with Liston than with Machen.

i remember watching that fight on ESPN Classic years ago.
I don't think Sonnl Liston looked particularly aggressive or determined going into it like most of his fights.
Maybe he smoked some reefer in the dressing room just before and was feeling really Mellow Y'all.

This fight proved that unlike Foreman, Liston had a Plan B if there was no knockout.

If GF hadn't freaked out in San Juan and kept jabbing, he would have won a close decision against Jimmy Young.

Tony1244 wrote:This fight proved that unlike Foreman, Liston had a Plan B if there was no knockout.

If GF hadn't freaked out in San Juan and kept jabbing, he would have won a close decision against Jimmy Young.

Probably so....funny how fate works, If that had happened, he likely would never have been champion again or been as successful in life. He seemingly needed the down time to regain his sanity/composure/confidence etc.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:This fight proved that unlike Foreman, Liston had a Plan B if there was no knockout.

If GF hadn't freaked out in San Juan and kept jabbing, he would have won a close decision against Jimmy Young.

Probably so....funny how fate works, If that had happened, he likely would never have been champion again or been as successful in life. He seemingly needed the down time to regain his sanity/composure/confidence etc.

In 1975 Ali was so in and Foreman was so out. Everyone thought Ali would become some sort of ambassador and Foreman would fade into oblivion or worse. Look how that turned out.

I think the Liston-Machen fight shows how fickle we boxing fans are.
If you blow out everyone early, your stamina will be questioned. Will you be able to outbox a guy who very hard to stop?
If someone does go the distance, then maybe you aren't that good or don't hit that hard.

Sometimes the KO just never materializes or takes longer than expected. Happens to everyone.
If you only saw Joe Louis vs Tommy Farr or Arturo Godoy, or the first Conn fight, would you really be that impressed?
Lewis struggled with Mavrovic.
Tyson didn't look good against James Tillis and Bonecrusher Smith.

This fight certainly isn't the highlight of Liston's career. However, at least he did enough to win a fight against a very good boxer.

Who really knows?

I scored it 117-110 for Liston and I was actually disappointed with Machen. You can't win a fight throwing as few punches as he did unless there laced with TNT.

Tony1244 wrote:This fight proved that unlike Foreman, Liston had a Plan B if there was no knockout.

If GF hadn't freaked out in San Juan and kept jabbing, he would have won a close decision against Jimmy Young.

Foreman was putting too much strength on the jab and Young was reading it well... Young threw an effortless jab with great timing and landed it really well on George.. It was a lot like Mikey Garcia popping Adrien Broner, his timing was impeccable.. He followed up with smooth shots and combos.. Young was real slick.. He beats Liston boxing like that, but he fell way off after the Foreman fight.. Why didn't Jimmy keep working at his game like a Klitschko?

I think the Young fight stayed with Foreman a long time and he figured out what happened.. When Foreman made his comeback 10 years later he was in terrible physical condition, but he was more patient.. He took his time more and set his punches up well.. He threw smoother punches and didn't load his shots as often.. His personality changed with the new program.. He mellowed out and was extremely image conscious, which worked very well for him.

Machens performance is even more impressive when you realize he did it with one hand as he had an injured hand.

klompton wrote:Machens performance is even more impressive when you realize he did it with one hand as he had an injured hand.

This is not the first time I had heard of this, but wasn't sure I wanted to throw it out there, because it was just something my dad told me, but he wasn't one to just toss stuff out there, so I assume he read it in a newspaper or boxing magazine. Any documentation that you are aware of on this? An interview or sports reporter observations?

Just curious.

Kalan wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:This fight proved that unlike Foreman, Liston had a Plan B if there was no knockout.

If GF hadn't freaked out in San Juan and kept jabbing, he would have won a close decision against Jimmy Young.

Foreman was putting too much strength on the jab and Young was reading it well... Young threw an effortless jab with great timing and landed it really well on George.. It was a lot like Mikey Garcia popping Adrien Broner, his timing was impeccable.. He followed up with smooth shots and combos.. Young was real slick.. He beats Liston boxing like that, but he fell way off after the Foreman fight.. Why didn't Jimmy keep working at his game like a Klitschko?

I think the Young fight stayed with Foreman a long time and he figured out what happened.. When Foreman made his comeback 10 years later he was in terrible physical condition, but he was more patient.. He took his time more and set his punches up well.. He threw smoother punches and didn't load his shots as often.. His personality changed with the new program.. He mellowed out and was extremely image conscious, which worked very well for him.

I just re-watched Young-Foreman and Foreman really looked terrible. I was a fan of his back then but in retrospect, he wasn't very good from 1975-77. He fought some exhibitions against grade B opponents in Toronto and against Rico Brooks and Jody Ballard. LeDoux, Dennis, and Agosto were easy for George. So was a washed up Frazier who was tailor made for GF anyway. Of course we all know he barely got by Ron Lyle. He didn't seem to have the confidence to go in and swarm against Young.

Was Clancy the right trainer for him? I thought so at the time, but he tried to turn GF into a boxer.

He just seemed off against Young.
Part of it was Young fighting a great fight, but there seemed more to it than just that. For whatever reason, he seemed lethargic for much of the fight. As for Clancy, well I'm probably going to get ripped for this, but I have always suspected that he was an overrated trainer.

I didn't think Liston looked lethargic against Machen. He just didn't looked that great, though not terrible by any means. Sometimes the big KO just doesn't come.

Ambling Alp II wrote:He just seemed off against Young.
Part of it was Young fighting a great fight, but there seemed more to it than just that. For whatever reason, he seemed lethargic for much of the fight. As for Clancy, well I'm probably going to get ripped for this, but I have always suspected that he was an overrated trainer.

I didn't think Liston looked lethargic against Machen. He just didn't looked that great, though not terrible by any means. Sometimes the big KO just doesn't come.

I always liked Clancy, great Irish-American character. But in retrospect I think I agree. It was inexcusable of him not to stop the Frazier--Quarry 2 fight sooner. He really didn't solve Foreman's problems.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Part of it was Young fighting a great fight, but there seemed more to it than just that. For whatever reason, he seemed lethargic for much of the fight. As for Clancy, well I'm probably going to get ripped for this, but I have always suspected that he was overrated.

I didn't think Liston looked lethargic against Machen. He just didn't looked that great, though not terrible by any means

Tony1244 wrote:Was Clancy the right trainer for him? I thought so at the time, but he tried to turn GF into a boxer.

Foreman NEEDED to learn how to box... But you CAN'T learn how to box in 2 or 3 fights with Gil Clancy. You need 20 fights. Foreman started his 2nd career 10 years later. He fought virtual 4-rounder type opponents like a novice starting out. He progressed for years until he could box fairly well when he reached his early 40's.. I was amazed.. Everyone thought George had a screw loose but he's a methodical guy -- and he's now one of the wealthiest boxers in History.. Even though it took many years to percolate, the Young fight was the catalyst for his comeback -- "I need to be a better and more patient boxer." Right George.

Liston fought Machen very well.. Machen was a very good boxer and Liston out-boxed him.. What's wrong with that??? The game is called Boxing right?

Kalan wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Part of it was Young fighting a great fight, but there seemed more to it than just that. For whatever reason, he seemed lethargic for much of the fight. As for Clancy, well I'm probably going to get ripped for this, but I have always suspected that he was overrated.

I didn't think Liston looked lethargic against Machen. He just didn't looked that great, though not terrible by any means

Tony1244 wrote:Was Clancy the right trainer for him? I thought so at the time, but he tried to turn GF into a boxer.

Foreman NEEDED to learn how to box... But you CAN'T learn how to box in 2 or 3 fights with Gil Clancy. You need 20 fights. Foreman started his 2nd career 10 years later. He fought virtual 4-rounder type opponents like a novice starting out. He progressed for years until he could box fairly well when he reached his early 40's.. I was amazed.. Everyone thought George had a screw loose but he's a methodical guy -- and he's now one of the wealthiest boxers in History.. Even though it took many years to percolate, the Young fight was the catalyst for his comeback -- "I need to be a better and more patient boxer." Right George.

Liston fought Machen very well.. Machen was a very good boxer and Liston out-boxed him.. What's wrong with that??? The game is called Boxing right?

I read a sports piece in late 1975 I believe when GF signed on with Gil Clancy. GF said, "I have to get back to the basics. I have to get back to the jab." Of course he was right. He knew he neglected the jab against Ali but unfortunately he didn't stick to what he said because he also neglected the jab against Jimmy Young. GF tried to box Lyle and almost git knocked out! I agree it takes more than a couple fights to learn how to box. GF looked best against Norton IMO, because he jabbed Kenny.

Foreman should have watched film of his hero Sonny Liston against Machen. May have helped him in the Young fight.

Well the secret to the jab is an effortless jab that's as smooth as glass... It's easy to say and hard to do and takes a long time to develop.. The other secrets are the stance, balance, footwork, and timing... You also need great feinting skills and you have the whole package for the jab... Young had a real good jab, but you need to maintain it with a great amount of practice and good sparring.. By the time he fought Ossie Ocasio his skills were dulled.

As for Ken Norton? ... He wasn't a slick boxer. but led with his head like Frazier did.. That's a dream come true for a puncher - but it's tough on a boxer... If you can out-box the boxers and beat down the punchers who bull into you with their head, then you're somebody who hasn't existed in boxing yet.

But being a master boxer is akin to playing the piano like Van Cliburn.. If you want to maintain that level, you have to practice every damned day.

Kalan wrote:Well the secret to the jab is an effortless jab that's as smooth as glass... It's easy to say and hard to do and takes a long time to develop.. The other secrets are the stance, balance, footwork, and timing... You also need great feinting skills and you have the whole package for the jab... Young had a real good jab, but you need to maintain it with a great amount of practice and good sparring.. By the time he fought Ossie Ocasio his skills were dulled.

As for Ken Norton? ... He wasn't a slick boxer. but led with his head like Frazier did.. That's a dream come true for a puncher - but it's tough on a boxer... If you can out-box the boxers and beat down the punchers who bull into you with their head, then you're somebody who hasn't existed in boxing yet.

But being a master boxer is akin to playing the piano like Van Cliburn.. If you want to maintain that level, you have to practice every damned day.

Talking about jabs and Clancy, Gil always told his fighters to snap the jab.

Kalan wrote:Well the secret to the jab is an effortless jab that's as smooth as glass... It's easy to say and hard to do and takes a long time to develop.. The other secrets are the stance, balance, footwork, and timing... You also need great feinting skills and you have the whole package for the jab... Young had a real good jab, but you need to maintain it with a great amount of practice and good sparring.. By the time he fought Ossie Ocasio his skills were dulled.

As for Ken Norton? ... He wasn't a slick boxer. but led with his head like Frazier did.. That's a dream come true for a puncher - but it's tough on a boxer... If you can out-box the boxers and beat down the punchers who bull into you with their head, then you're somebody who hasn't existed in boxing yet.

But being a master boxer is akin to playing the piano like Van Cliburn.. If you want to maintain that level, you have to practice every damned day.

Van Cliburn was good and very methodical, But Oscar Peterson had Van Cliburn's methods, and added pure imagination and the ability to invent and create right on the spot. But was completely able to deliver on both fronts. Van Cliburn had only the old school options in his hands.

What boxing needs now is an Oscar Peterson type of fighter.....Which one do you think A.J. represents? You think he'll be able to make it up as he goes and figure out in real time, the puzzle of his greatest opponents? That's what Monzon represented in my book. Methodical, and creative, and competent in both areas and the ability to recognize when and where to choose which approach to take to win. Maybe Floyd was/is close in that regard, but even he was more the Van Cliburn in my book.


Ok, now you got me talkin' music as it relates to boxing......my apologies to those who can't make this leap. lol.

Joshua proved he could create on the fly in the Klitschko fight when he had to escape danger.. Epic talking and dodging.

Some like Hamed and Ali tried to create their own methods... Ali tried to pull straight back from punches with hands down... and had no body attack. Those things made Ali exciting because he got hit so much and so hard... Lomachenko is the true creator... Angles, feints, and combinations never seen before. All done with no holding or other rule breaking... Ali set the Heavyweight Title record for grabbing and holding with 20 -- in the 1st round of the Foreman fight.