BoxRec

Cooney was about 17-0.

Ali had beaten Spinks in New Orleans and had retired again.

What If Ali decided 1 more defense against the undefeated "white hope?"

Ali was a shell of himself and Cooney wasn't yet even in his prime (which wasn't great).

Who would have won and how? A lot of tickets sold, I can tell you that.

If it was early in 1979 Ali might have found a way to win.
Sadly, towards the end of the year I think Cooney would have outpointed him.

Cooney loses a hotly disputed decision in the Garden.

Idk about 1979, but I know in 1981 Ali was scheduled to fight Tex Cobb. Unfortunately, Cobb got involved in a bar room brawl saving a man's life from an angry baseball team. Cobb had his arm broken in the process. Because of this, Ali fought Trevor Berbick instead.

Ali in 1979 was really slow and fat. Watch his exhibition fight with Lyle Alzado and you'll see what I mean. I think, in reality, any solid journeyman, let alone a prospect like Cooney, could have beaten Ali. Truth is, Ali knew he couldn't beat legitimate contenders anymore and the Spinks bout was only made because he was determined to be the least threat to Ali.

If I'm not mistaken Ali went so far as to try and have an old amateur opponent (who knocked Ali out) make his pro debut against him, but no commission would sanction the contest UNLESS the man beat a top ten contender first. From the last Norton fight onwards he knew he had nothing really left.

Interesting how Ali vs Cooney or Bobick never happened....

Tony1244 wrote:Interesting how Ali vs Cooney or Bobick never happened....

Didn't the Norton - Bobick fight in May of '77 begin as Ali - Bobick? If I'm not mistaken Ali had signed a contract to fight Bobick in MSG but somehow managed to get Norton to fight Bobick with the winner to face him while Ali went through the motions against Alfredo Evangelista.
I've always said that there was a good chance that had Ali met Bobick that May that Bobick could have done what Leon Spinks did to him the following February. Of course, Ali had just enough left in September to squeak by Earnie Shavers so maybe he'd have been able to get by Bobick too. But Shavers didn't have Eddie Futch in his corner, so there would have been that to take into account.
Whenever I bring this up many are aghast that I could envision Duane Bobick of all fighters beating Ali. But, I can see a busy, body punishing Bobick staying on top of Ali for 15 rounds & winning on points.
Of course, as soon as Bobick defended against anyone with a punch he'd have lost the title.

Indeed the contract said the winner of Norton vs Bobick would face Ali... But when Norton prevailed, Ali went looking for Spinks.

sweetviolenturge wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:Interesting how Ali vs Cooney or Bobick never happened....

Didn't the Norton - Bobick fight in May of '77 begin as Ali - Bobick? If I'm not mistaken Ali had signed a contract to fight Bobick in MSG but somehow managed to get Norton to fight Bobick with the winner to face him while Ali went through the motions against Alfredo Evangelista.
I've always said that there was a good chance that had Ali met Bobick that May that Bobick could have done what Leon Spinks did to him the following February. Of course, Ali had just enough left in September to squeak by Earnie Shavers so maybe he'd have been able to get by Bobick too. But Shavers didn't have Eddie Futch in his corner, so there would have been that to take into account.
Whenever I bring this up many are aghast that I could envision Duane Bobick of all fighters beating Ali. But, I can see a busy, body punishing Bobick staying on top of Ali for 15 rounds & winning on points.
Of course, as soon as Bobick defended against anyone with a punch he'd have lost the title.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I believe an Ali-Bobick fight was close to happening. According to Foreman, Ali had begged GF to fight Norton again. Not sure if this begging occurred before or after Ali-Norton 3, or perhaps both. Ali convinced himself that he wasn't aging, that he just had a problem with Norton, which of course he did, but he was also aging. So it makes perfect sense that Ali wanted Bobick to beat Norton, perhaps Duane would stop Ken, or he'd pound out a decision. Ali figured Bobick wouldn't only be a more lucrative fight but a much easier opponent.

Yes I agree, Duane could have been champion if he avoided Norton and had fought Ali in place of Spinks. Or Bobick could have beaten Spinks after Leon beat Ali for the title. Also agree that Bobick wouldn't have kept it long. He just couldn't take the shot.

I remember interviewing Chuck Wepner once, and him saying that Bobick's power was good but overrated. I figured Chuck would know best as he fought Foreman and Liston.

Ali at his worst still beats Cooney

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Ali at his worst still beats Cooney

Larry Holmes said Cooney could have been champion had he not been around. So, I don't know how you can diminish Cooney so much. Ali post 1978 was beyond shot.

Unfortunately, Larry says a lot of things he either doesn't mean, or know what he's talking about.

Nile4000 wrote:Unfortunately, Larry says a lot of things he either doesn't mean, or know what he's talking about.

Are you honestly going to say the Ali that was decimated by Holmes would have defeated Cooney?

HomicideHenry wrote:I remember interviewing Chuck Wepner once, and him saying that Bobick's power was good but overrated. I figured Chuck would know best as he fought Foreman and Liston.

It would be hard to overrate Bobick's punching power.. since the crude swinging greenhorn Kallie Kneotze walked through Bobick and knocked him out in 3 rounds -- and soft John Tate ran over Bobick and knocked him out in the 1st round.. Not to mention that Ken Norton wasn't noted to be a super tough guy.. Norton was scared to death of George Foreman, but displayed nothing but utter contempt for Bobick -- destroying him in seconds.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Unfortunately, Larry says a lot of things he either doesn't mean, or know what he's talking about.

Are you honestly going to say the Ali that was decimated by Holmes would have defeated Cooney?

That was late 1980 Ali. A year earlier, I feel Muhamnad would have some fuel left in the tank to deal with Gerry Cooney. At least in the judges eyes.

Nile4000 wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Unfortunately, Larry says a lot of things he either doesn't mean, or know what he's talking about.

Are you honestly going to say the Ali that was decimated by Holmes would have defeated Cooney?

That was late 1980 Ali. A year earlier, I feel Muhamnad would have some fuel left in the tank to deal with Gerry Cooney. At least in the judges eyes.

Either you seriously diminish Cooney, or you seriously make Ali into Superman... In 1979 he couldn't beat anybody, period... He was already showing signs of Parkinson's and was hog fat.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:
Are you honestly going to say the Ali that was decimated by Holmes would have defeated Cooney?

That was late 1980 Ali. A year earlier, I feel Muhamnad would have some fuel left in the tank to deal with Gerry Cooney. At least in the judges eyes.

Either you seriously diminish Cooney, or you seriously make Ali into Superman... In 1979 he couldn't beat anybody, period... He was already showing signs of Parkinson's and was hog fat.

He didn't fight in 1979, but he had enough knowledge, and understanding, that Cooney would really need something unusual to win.

Gerry Cooney at his best wiped out a faded Norton, Lyle, and Young... There is no reason to believe he wouldn't also stop a faded Ali.

The post-Holmes Cooney couldn't beat anyone decent... Prior to that he was a decent Heavyweight... He's another one like Buster Douglas and Tyson Fury.

Kalan wrote:Gerry Cooney at his best wiped out a faded Norton, Lyle, and Young... There is no reason to believe he wouldn't also stop a faded Ali.

The post-Holmes Cooney couldn't beat anyone decent... Prior to that he was a decent Heavyweight... He's another one like Buster Douglas and Tyson Fury.

I always felt Tate and Weaver would have hurt Ali badly, had they had their chance at him. I usually see Cooney beating Weaver for the WBA title, so I could only imagine the kind of beating Gerry would have put on Ali. Norton nearly died at the hands of Cooney.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Kalan wrote:Gerry Cooney at his best wiped out a faded Norton, Lyle, and Young... There is no reason to believe he wouldn't also stop a faded Ali.

The post-Holmes Cooney couldn't beat anyone decent... Prior to that he was a decent Heavyweight... He's another one like Buster Douglas and Tyson Fury.

I always felt Tate and Weaver would have hurt Ali badly, had they had their chance at him. I usually see Cooney beating Weaver for the WBA title, so I could only imagine the kind of beating Gerry would have put on Ali. Norton nearly died at the hands of Cooney.

Pre-Holmes Cooney was nice, and I could see him stopping Ali in 1981, but can we say 1979 Cooney really takes Ali. He wasn't that experienced. As it was, he wisely avoided Dokes and Page.

You didn't need a lot of experience to beat Ali... Neon Leon was 6-0-1 and couldn't beat Scott LeDoux who even Duane Bobick knocked out.

Ali wasn't a great boxer, but he tended to draw the eyes of the judges because he was so famous. Trainers will tell you that great fame and reputation will get you points on the cards -- so you have to overcome that by winning rounds very clearly. 80% of judges don't count punches. They go by their gut feel of who won the round. If a judge emotionally favors an opponent and he finishes a round strong he's likely to think "That late rally just nicked it for Mr Great" But if the other guy finishes a round strong he's likely to think "Good finish. He tried to steal the round, but you can't pull that one on this old boy."

Having great fame also allows you a better selection of opponents. There wasn't much pressure on Ali to fight Larry Holmes instead of Leon Spinks. Even after Spinks was stripped of the title and Holmes beat Norton for it, there was little pressure on Ali to fight Holmes. He fought Spinks again and retired. For his 49th fight Mayweather was still a World Champion.. Keith Thurman had been his mandatory for some time.. Both Thurman and Kell Brook were undefeated World Welterweight Champions. There was almost no pressure on Mayweather to fight them. Boxing is more Business than Sport.

Coach Bill Slayton said Norton timed Ali's jab and popped him right in the face with his own jab and got more in.. He scored with a variety of punches.. Norton dominated Ali in their 1st fight and won a SD.. The vote for Ali didn't surprise Slayton.. "No. I've seen worse judging than that in this fkd up sport." In the rematch and rubber match Norton continued to control the ring space and land more effectively, but Slayton sensed it may not be enough to win. "Kenny was over the top. I told him to settle down. Don't go thinking you won it until they read the cards. That's just the way it is."

Kalan wrote:Ali wasn't a great boxer
Even after Spinks was stripped of the title and Holmes beat Norton for it, there was little pressure on Ali to fight Holmes. He fought Spinks again and retired.

Kalan, I can't believe you said that Ali wasn't a great boxer
Secondly, Ali was not stripped of THE title. He was stripped of A sanctioning body belt.
He rematched Spinks in order to reverse a defeat and become the only 3 time LINEAR heavyweight champion in history.

I don't think the Spinks win should count towards being a 3-time Champion... Spinks didn't deserve the Title Fight in the 1st place... and Ali only became a 3-time Heavyweight champion by LOSING to Spinks and then rematching him when Holmes was the real Heavyweight Champion.

Ali was a great fighter for sure... He wasn't a great boxer... A great boxer doesn't get hit with a shower of left hooks that balloons up his jaw.. He doesn't pull straight back from punches or get hit with looping shots very often.. He doesn't move his right guard well away from his face when he jabs.. His footwork is more precise.. He's got an all-around game including a body attack and an inside game.. He doesn't resort to clinching 20 times in a round (a record for champs) like Ali did in the first round of the Foreman fight, because holding and wrestling are not actually allowed under Queensberry Rules. And he doesn't get outpointed by guys like Ken Norton and Leon Spinks.. So yes. Ali was a great fighter..

Holmes was a great boxer who fought until he was 52 with no ill effects.. He beat Ray Mercer at 42.. He had great all-around skills -- so even when Holmes had a big, fat pot belly in his 40's and 50's, his basic skills allowed him to escape hard driven hooks and right hands for the most part even then... Even Mayweather got hit ... The thing is to limit the number of times you get hit.

Kalan wrote:I don't think the Spinks win should count towards being a 3-time Champion

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but nevertheless the history books will show that Muhammad Ali became the only 3 time linear heavyweight champion when he beat Spinks in the rematch.
A properly trained Ali gave young Leon a boxing lesson in the Superdome, the judges scoring it 11-4, 10-4-1, 10-4-1.

Larry Holmes merely became the WBC belt holder when he only just about managed to beat Norton on a split points decision. I have to admit Norton v Holmes was a great fight though.

Poor Ken Norton - the only heavyweight champion who never won a world title fight!

Ali v Spinks 2 drew a crowd of 63,350 and was shown around the world. Norton v Holmes drew a crowd of 5,600. Which was the bigger event?

No matter who he fought or when he fought, Ali was always "the bigger event."

The other guys were just boxers. Ali was an icon.