BoxRec

Two big men. Solid chins. In their respective primes. Jeffries never fought a big guy as tough as George. Chuvalo had a better jab than Jeffries and arguably better defence. Watch Chuvalo when he fought Besmanoff, Bonavena, Ramos, Dejohn, etc. Jeffries was a big man who mostly fought lighter guys who couldn't really hurt him. Even Ruhlin and Munroe weren't big punchers and they didn't throw combinations.

I'd have to figure Chuvalo to win in a 10 round fight and even 20.

Jeffries would be an easy winner...

No possible way does Chuvalo KO boxing masters like Jim Corbett...a man Jeffries beat twice.. Gentleman Jim would box rings around Chuvalo.. Jeffries only lost 1 fight -- and that was to master boxer Jack Johnson after Jeffries had been out of the ring for 6 years.. Chuvalo was easily beaten by Jimmy Ellis, who fought most of his professional fights as a Middleweight up to that point..

Chuvalo was the most famous victim of Pete (the amateur) Rademacher -- so I don't think Chuvalo had the overall fistic instincts or talent the great Jim Jeffries possessed.. Patterson, of course, Made Chuvalo look like a rank amateur, so what do you think Corbett would do???

Not much, considering how primitive guys like that were. We're talking about two different eras. In Corbett's day most fighters tended to rush in and throw one punch at a time. Chuvalo in his prime, would have seemed a ring marvel. Look at what a crude tavern brawler like Tom Sharkey did with Corbett.

Jeffries, like other big men, may have been quick outside the ring, but he was painfully plodding inside the squared circle. He was also overly cautious. When it finally dawned on him that the feather-fisted Corbett couldn't hurt him, he just advanced on him and crushed him like the washed-up stage actor he really was.

It's laughable when people try to compare a lightning quick boxer like Patterson to guys like Corbett and Fitzsimmons. In their day there were a handful of relatively talented heavyweights; maybe a half dozen men weighing over the 154-158 pound middleweight limit. The rest wouldn't even be in the journeyman class today. Fitzsimmons was a middleweight with light heavyweight power who may have been the best of the lot. Sharkey was a small light heavyweight who liked to rush in and use head, elbows and forearms as much as fists. He was known as a crude mauler who fought dirty when he could get away with it. Fitz destroyed him twice. Peter Jackson was likely the closest thing to a modern day (pre-1960s) heavyweight, at least in size. In his day he was considered a slick boxer but was not feared for his KO punch. Ruhlin, Kennedy, McAuliffe, Dunkhorst, and the rest were punching bags for smaller guys like Choynski and McCoy.

Jeffries at his best stood a hair over 6' and weighed between 205 and 215. Almost exactly the same size and build as Chuvalo. When he saw how poor the rest of the field was Jeff would enter the ring at 220 or 230. Chuvalo would have used his jab to bust up the crouching Jeffries then smashed home uppercuts that would have been harder than anything those other little guys had been able to throw. Once Jeffries was out of his crouch, Chuvalo would have traded body punches and left hooks to the head. Watch how tough Jerry Quarry took those. Even guys like Manuel Ramos and Willie Besmanoff would have destroyed the poorly-trained mutts that passed for contenders in the 1890s. Do like I've done and go back and really study the contemporary accounts of those guys.

Jeffries was the beast of his era, but it was a pretty soft one compared to Chuvalo's.

I always say that if all fights were 20-45 rounds, and gloves were 3oz and referees just gave counts... Jim Jeffries was the greatest... It's hard to imagine anyone past, present or upcoming capable of hurting a man who in his pro debut went 14 rounds against a veteran of 100 fights and winning by knockout... He was faster than people recognize, and in his prime his power was unheard of... Sam Langford, probably the greatest boxer to ever live a man who Jack Dempsey admitted he ducked, promoted himself as: "Willing to take on all comers EXCEPT Jim Jeffries." The irony for Jefferies is many years later after his last fight, Jack Johnson told RING MAGAZINE that he felt Jeffries was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, even though he beat him (albeit the worst possible version of Jeffries).

Cap wrote:Jeffries, like other big men, may have been quick outside the ring, but he was painfully plodding inside the squared circle.

We have hardly any footage of him fighting over than the shell that fought Jack Johnson. And what little does exist is pretty questionable, fragmented and awful quality. And with the early footage the fragments that exist are often the least interesting bits. PLus he was fighting much longer fights often won by attrition, not shocking he was conservative with his energy.

He was also overly cautious

The fights were much longer, 20 rounds standard, sometimes 25. Being more cautious makes sense, and given he kept winning, he clearly wasn't overly cautious.

When it finally dawned on him that the feather-fisted Corbett couldn't hurt him, he just advanced on him and crushed him like the washed-up stage actor he really was.

That's just not true. Corbett was winning, but he tried to set a trap which Jeffries saw through and countered to KO him.

Corbett had also had help from Tommy Ryan to counter Jeffrie's style (which Tommy Ryan had taught him).

Corbett was no big punching heavyweight, but he isn't half a feather fisted as people make out, he broke Peter Jackson's ribs FFS.

It's laughable when people try to compare a lightning quick boxer like Patterson to guys like Corbett and Fitzsimmons. In their day there were a handful of relatively talented heavyweights; maybe a half dozen men weighing over the 154-158 pound middleweight limit. The rest wouldn't even be in the journeyman class today. Fitzsimmons was a middleweight with light heavyweight power who may have been the best of the lot. Sharkey was a small light heavyweight who liked to rush in and use head, elbows and forearms as much as fists. He was known as a crude mauler who fought dirty when he could get away with it. Fitz destroyed him twice. Peter Jackson was likely the closest thing to a modern day (pre-1960s) heavyweight, at least in size. In his day he was considered a slick boxer but was not feared for his KO punch. Ruhlin, Kennedy, McAuliffe, Dunkhorst, and the rest were punching bags for smaller guys like Choynski and McCoy.

Of course they don't look as slick, they were fighting often fighting 20 rounds or more, you have to pace things slower. And while techniques weren't nearly as developed, a lot of the boxers weren't half as crude as made out. Fitz's power was well beyond that of a light heavyweight, it was flat out freakish. Sharkey was a rough brawler, but but he clearly had a fair amount of skill in his dirtyness, plent of modern boxers Hopkins and Holyfield use a lot of fouls. You talk about the skill of Peter Jackson, yet he still wasn't able to beat a smaller and much less experienced Corbett, so it's obvious atleast he was on that level. The skills and tricks of Corbett and Fitz were highly respected and admired by later generations of boxers, and Fitz still had success in his early 40s, which would be odd if they were so crude and primitive.

Gus Ruhlin was also a decent size, and on his day was excellent.

Cap wrote:Not much, considering how primitive guys like that were. We're talking about two different eras. In Corbett's day most fighters tended to rush in and throw one punch at a time. Chuvalo in his prime, would have seemed a ring marvel. Look at what a crude tavern brawler like Tom Sharkey did with Corbett.

Jeffries, like other big men, may have been quick outside the ring, but he was painfully plodding inside the squared circle. He was also overly cautious. When it finally dawned on him that the feather-fisted Corbett couldn't hurt him, he just advanced on him and crushed him like the washed-up stage actor he really was

BitPlayer addressed a lot of this nonsense -- but to add, Corbett was a skilled boxer who didn't rush in with his punches. for a "feather fist" he knocked out Kid McCoy, John L Sullivan, Joe Choynski, and Charlie Mitchell brutally for a 20,000 dollar purse. That was a fortune in those days.. Quite a haul for a washed up stage actor.. In his first challenge to Jeffries it was noted by reporters that Corbett "Marked Jeffries severely" before taking the KO shot from the bigger man.. Had that been a 15 or 20 round fight, Corbett would have been the first man to beat Jeffries, like he was the first and only man to beat John L Sullivan.

Neither Corbett nor Jackson were noted as heavy handed, hence their going 61 rounds, at which point the bored officials stopped it and called it a draw. In no universe could Corbett break Jackson's ribs. He had enough trouble stopping middleweights like Mitchell and McCoy and a 170 pound Choynski, and a decrepit, alcohol soaked fat-man in Sullivan. It was only his defensive skills that held off Jeffries as long as they did, that and instructions from Jeff's chief second Billy Delaney who had devised a plan to wear the aging Corbett out.

Fitzsimmons rarely weighed more than 165-170 when campaigning with heavyweights. He was a world-beater at middleweight because of his freakish body. No middleweight stood a chance against a guy with the upper-body of a heavyweight. Even amongst the big boys he was probably second only to Jeffries, who was a giant compared to the average heavy. Except for Dunkhorst, who was just fat, and clumsy Fred Russell who was just large, most "heavies" were in the 170 to 190 pound range. They consistently lost to middleweights when they chanced going against them.

As for the mythic pro-debut against Hank Griffin, there is no mention of it in the accounts of the day. It only cropped up in later years as part of his legend. When he fought Griffin again later in his career, no newspapers made any mention of an earlier encounter.

Jim Jeffries was easily the best of his era, though the fact he ducked Jack Johnson, does put an asterisk beside his name. As for Sam Langford, he was versed enough in the anti-negro prejudice of the day to avoid any notion of challenging the Great White Hope. Prior to that, he was barely a middleweight himself.

No. Jeffries was a bear of a man in an era of midgets. He likely didn't punch any harder than Chuvalo or Quarry or Mike Dejohn. He didn't have to. Those same gents would have waded through the weight class of the 1890s like juggernauts. No five or six punches a round pacing themselves. They would have destroyed the competition in short order.

Cap wrote:Neither Corbett nor Jackson were noted as heavy handed, hence their going 61 rounds, at which point the bored officials stopped it and called it a draw. In no universe could Corbett break Jackson's ribs. He had enough trouble stopping middleweights like Mitchell and McCoy and a 170 pound Choynski, and a decrepit, alcohol soaked fat-man in Sullivan. It was only his defensive skills that held off Jeffries as long as they did, that and instructions from Jeff's chief second Billy Delaney who had devised a plan to wear the aging Corbett out.

Fitzsimmons rarely weighed more than 165-170 when campaigning with heavyweights. He was a world-beater at middleweight because of his freakish body. No middleweight stood a chance against a guy with the upper-body of a heavyweight. Even amongst the big boys he was probably second only to Jeffries, who was a giant compared to the average heavy. Except for Dunkhorst, who was just fat, and clumsy Fred Russell who was just large, most "heavies" were in the 170 to 190 pound range. They consistently lost to middleweights when they chanced going against them.

As for the mythic pro-debut against Hank Griffin, there is no mention of it in the accounts of the day. It only cropped up in later years as part of his legend. When he fought Griffin again later in his career, no newspapers made any mention of an earlier encounter.

Jim Jeffries was easily the best of his era, though the fact he ducked Jack Johnson, does put an asterisk beside his name. As for Sam Langford, he was versed enough in the anti-negro prejudice of the day to avoid any notion of challenging the Great White Hope. Prior to that, he was barely a middleweight himself.

No. Jeffries was a bear of a man in an era of midgets. He likely didn't punch any harder than Chuvalo or Quarry or Mike Dejohn. He didn't have to. Those same gents would have waded through the weight class of the 1890s like juggernauts. No five or six punches a round pacing themselves. They would have destroyed the competition in short order.

Jeffries may have been a giant in an era of midgets, but, never forget... He challenged Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey to fight him all on the same night one after the other, and all three refused to do so. He already done the same feat in England against their top three men and he knocked those guys out.

That'd be like Joshua, fighting Haye, Bellew and Ward all in the same night and flattening them inside of three rounds.

HomicideHenry wrote:Jeffries may have been a giant in an era of midgets, but, never forget... He challenged Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey to fight him all on the same night one after the other, and all three refused to do so. He already done the same feat in England against their top three men and he knocked those guys out.

That'd be like Joshua, fighting Haye, Bellew and Ward all in the same night and flattening them inside of three rounds.

Hardly. Have you looked up the three best (or twenty best) heavyweights in all of Europe and the UK in Jeffries time? It would be more like Joshua fighting any random three rugby players. As for Jeffries fighting Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey all on the same night, no promoter was willing to pay for that farce. More interesting was his racist refusal (what else can you call it?) to defend his title against Jack Johnson because he was a "negro", despite the fact he had fought Hank Griffin and Peter Jackson once each. There's every reason to believe his real reason was because he'd seen Johnson in action and realized there was a good chance Johnson could beat him.

The more you examine Jeffries, the more you begin to realize that a prime Chuvalo fighting in that early glove era and conditioned to go all out for 15 hard rounds, would have been Jeff's toughest opponent and likely would've been an odds on favourite to beat the Boilermaker.

Chuvalo was a tough man to fight, period. For anybody. That we can agree on. However, it's hard to justify him winning against a man like Jeffries who was an undefeated champion (undisputed) when Chuvalo himself was rather inconsistent in his performances. He'd win some, then lose, totally setting back his momentum, and every time he stepped up (save for Quarry) he lost. Ali beat him easy twice, Patterson beat him rather convincingly, and so did Ernie Terrell. He was good, but it was obvious that he was always going to be just on the outside of the true, legitimate top guys.

Jeffries on the other hand, fought a man alot like Chuvalo in Tom Sharkey... Big, strong, tough, well conditioned, dirty as hell (that's why Ali called Chuvalo the washer woman cus he could be dirty as hell too) and Jeffries beat him twice over 40+ rounds in total... Jeffries used alot of top black men, believe it or not, in training camp in preparation for all of his fights... I don't think he feared anyone, or had any anxiety over anyone in his career; nobody impressed him enough to make him duck or dodge.

Of course people like yourself will say he ducked Johnson but that wasn't altogether true. He said many times to the press, had the championship not been involved he would have fought Johnson or any other black man there was. As he said, he fought many blacks on the way up, so it had nothing to do with race or fear, just the championship.

At one point, Johnson did walk into a bar where Jeffries was and challenged him. Jeffries then said, "Tell you what, let's fight right now, down in the cellar, and whoever comes up the stairs is victorious and can call himself the champion!", and Johnson walked away. So it's not like Jeffries in any sense was afraid of Jack Johnson. It was all just politics.

If Chuvalo had fought the same guys Jeff fought he would've been unbeaten too. Neither Corbett nor Fitzsimmons were even at their prime when they fought Jeffries. As for the "big, tough Sharkey", he stood 5' 8" with a 70" reach and rarely weighed more than 178-180 at his best. How can you compare him to Chuvalo? Tommy Burns was only an inch shorter with a four inch reach advantage, a hard puncher and a much smarter more skilled boxer than Sharkey. He would've put Sharkey on his keister. Chuvalo would've used him for a punching bag, much like Jeffries did. At the time he fought him Jeffries had a very low opinion of Sharkey. It was nostalgia that improved his estimation of the little sailor.

I didn't say Jeff was afraid of Johnson. Unlike Burns, he just didn't think a black man was worthy of fighting for the championship of the world and he criticized Tommy for giving Johnson a chance. He didn't mind using "negroes" for sparring partners, rubbers and go-fers, but that was all they were good for as far as he was concerned. His attitude mellowed somewhat in later years.

As for the story of Jeff offering to fight in a cellar, what black man in early twentieth century America, when people of his colour were routinely hanged from trees, would be stupid enough to go down into a dark cellar where Jeff and his friends would be waiting?

P.S. You forgot Doug Jones. Chuvalo knocked him out and Jones likely would've whipped all the guys Jeffries fought.

Chuvalo was certainly capable of giving Jeffries a tough fight, maybe even pull off an upset.
However, Chuvalo was not exactly Mr. Consistency.

I don't think Chuvlao would have been unbeaten against Jeffries competition. Chuvalo lost to Bob Cleroux and Pete Rademacher. Tony alongi got a draw against him.

I certainly could see even the versions of Fitz and Corbett that Jeffries fought beating Chuvalo. Sharkey was small, but tough as nail. Gus Ruhlin would have been a tough fight for Chuvalo. I don't see Chuvalo running the table against these guys.

I do think Chuvalo-Jeffries would have a fun fight to watch.

Cap wrote: I'd have to figure Chuvalo to win in a 10 round fight and even 20.

--- Pretty poor figurin' on your part. Lot of unsubstantiated nonsense about Jeff ducking JJ and Langford when they were barely a factor in the heavy division by the time of Jeff's last fight. If anything Jeff deserves credit for fighting some of the great black fighters of the day as a novice. He certainly wasn't obliged to do so, but he did because he was a fighter's fighter.

Guy that did most of the ducking as champ was JJ, it's engraved in stone now. By the way, Corbett was very fleet of foot and quick handed, and Fitz may dismissed as a plodder by modern fans who somehow think you have to run around the ring like a scalded chicken to have good feet, but regardless, Fitz at 160lbs was very quick handed, but he didn't throw bubble gum shoeshine flurries like you modern day sugars do. He just knocked em out.

There's a plethora of reasons why Jeff is in the HOF and Chuvalo ain't, but I figure you ain't figured it out yet, but we can pray for your Eureka moment in the future.

Jeffries by tko.

A fun fight to watch with Jeffries an easy winner..

Let's see...Oscar Bonavena was a small Heavyweight, wide open, and a clumsy oaf. He beat Chuvalo.. Pete Rademacher was a beaten down amateur. He beat Chuvalo. Eduardo Corletti beat Chuvalo.. Who was he??? I remember seeing Corrletti fight the big, slow Blue Lewis.. Blue put him out in 2 rounds. Corletti couldn't take it and he was easy to hit. Quarry took him out in 1.. Ray Patterson stopped him.. Corletti's only noteworthy win was Chuvalo. Quarry seemed horridly confused the way he lost to Chuvalo. He had George beaten to trash -- but let's say Jerry had his sharp days and his bad days.

Jeffries never lost in his prime.. And regardless of what you might think of the competition in those days -- Boxing was an established sport with a lot of competitors at Heavyweight.. Jeffries beat a lot of well established and esteemed pugilists, including: Pete Everett.. Gus Ruhlin.. Peter Jackson.. Tom Sharkey.. Jim Corbett.. Hank Griffin.. and Bob Armstrong.. And after being absent from the ring for 6 years he went 15 rounds with a peak Jack Johnson -- who was the best Heavyweight of the first 70 years of the 20th Century according to noted Boxing expert and historian, Nat Fleischer and many others. Unsurprisingly, Jeffries looked a little rusty and slow -- and lost that fight for the only defeat of his career.

Jeffries boxed three black pugilists during his career, only one of whom was of Hall of Fame calibre. Hank Griffin was regarded as a past-his-prime "light heavyweight" when he boxed champion Jeffries in a four-round exhibition in 1901. Bob Armstrong was a sparring partner class heavyweight when he met Jeffries in New York in 1898 and still came away making Jeff look less than spectacular. As for Peter Jackson, when he finally returned to the ring in 1898 he had not had a serious contest in six years and was in declining health.

Amongst many other notable black contenders, Chuvalo fought and stopped Doug Jones, who had recently knocked out both Bob Foster (more dangerous than Fitzsimmons) and Zora Folley (Better defensive fighter than Corbett) and lost a very controversial decision to Muhammad Ali. By comparison, Jeffries fought in Boxing's stone age against minor talents (Ruhlin, Sharkey, Munroe) and has-beens (Corbett, Fitzsimmons, etc).

Both at their prime, I give Chuvalo the edge because of his comparatively modern boxing skills.

The esteemed Mexican Pete Everett.....

Cap,
As for Jeffries fighting in the stone age.. come on. Just because he fought way before your time doesn't mean he or his competition was not that good.

Some of Jeffries competition was pretty good. Some wasn't. Some were somewhere in between. Fitz and Corbett still had something left when Jeffries beat them.

Same with Chuvalo.
If Ruhlin and Sharkey were minor talents, then what were Alongi (whom Chuvalo had a draw with) and Rademacher (whom Chuvalo actually lost to)?

The big difference is that Chuvalo lost fights to guys who were simply not that good. Jeffries did not.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Cap,
As for Jeffries fighting in the stone age.. come on. Just because he fought way before your time doesn't mean he or his competition was not that good.

Some of Jeffries competition was pretty good. Some wasn't. Some were somewhere in between. Fitz and Corbett still had something left when Jeffries beat them.

Same with Chuvalo.
If Ruhlin and Sharkey were minor talents, then what were Alongi (whom Chuvalo had a draw with) and Rademacher (whom Chuvalo actually lost to)?

The big difference is that Chuvalo lost fights to guys who were simply not that good. Jeffries did not.

Trivia:
Chuvalo was 16-0 with 16 KOs as an amateur. Jeffries was said to have boxed in roughly 20 amateur bouts. Both turned pro at 19. In their first year as pros, Chuvalo fought 8 times though 4 were part of a tournament. Jeffries fought once. In their second year as pros Chuvalo fought 6 times and Jeffries once. In their third year, both fought 5 times. In their fourth year Chuvalo fought twice and Jeffries fought 5 times.

Chuvalo had three losses in 21 fights in his first four years as a pro. The first was an 8 round split decision loss to Howard King, veteran of 49 fights. The second (in his 14th pro bout) was to long-time top contender Bob Baker. The third was to Pat McMurtry who was 29-2-1 and world-ranked by The Ring Magazine at the time.

As for Jeffries, of the men he fought prior to winning the title in his fifth year as a pro, only Joe Choynski could be considered a top man still in his prime at 29, and he weighed less than 170 pounds when he fought Jeffries and lasted 20 rounds. According to the local paper he should've received the decision but Jeffries was the coming attraction. Of the others, Henry Baker was a fat middleweight; Ruhlin was regarded as a second-rater who had been stopped earlier on by journeyman Yank Kenny; Joe Goddard was 41 years old and well past his best (he lost his two previous bouts to Tom Sharkey and Theodore Van Buskirk); Peter Jackson was in serious decline and hadn't fought in six years; Tom Sharkey was considered by writers of the day as an unskilled tavern brawler who had been allowed to get away with the worst kind of fouls in previous bouts, including using his head as a ram, throwing a man through the ropes and jumping on a man while he lay semi-conscious on the floor; Bob Armstrong was an indifferent sort who looked good in one fight and terrible in another (He was knocked cold by the abysmal Pete Everett just prior to fighting Jeffries).

Chuvalo's level of competition was much greater than the men Jeffries was hand-picked to fight and Jeffries retired at age 30 because there were no more white heavyweights around he could beat up on. Chuvalo was still fighting and ranked in the top ten past age 30 in one of the deepest pools of heavyweight talent in boxing history.

Cap, you are way off.
-Ruhlin was not a 2nd rater. He was contender when Jeffries fought him the first time.He was not a 2nd rater as you called him.
Speaking of 2nd raters, Howard King was a 2nd rater who beat Chuvalo. Actually that is being kind to King, who was really a 3rd rater.
As mentioned before Chuvalo lost to Rademacher. He was at best a 2nd rater. Chuvalo also lost to Eduard Corelleti. He had a draw with Tony Alongi.

-Sharkey was a contender when Jeffries fought him the first time as well as when he beat him as champion.

You are spinning big time. You are cherry picking bad things about Jeffries' opponents and either ignoring Chuvalo's losses or spinning them to not look so bad. McMurtry? come on man.

Handpicked opponents? You got to be kidding. When he retired Sam Langford was still a welterweight. McVey had not beaten anyone of note yet. Jeannette had not even started his career. Johnson was the only tested black fighter around and he really did not standout over everyone else at the time.

If you think Chuvalo would have fought Corbett twice, Fitz twice, Sharkey twice, Ruhlin twice, without losing once you are kidding your self.
And Jeffries never would have lost to people like Howard King, McMurtry, Corelleti, or had a draw with Tony Alongi. No way he loses 2 out of three to Bob Cleroux either.

George would've beaten the old Corbett and Fitz easily. Ruhlin wouldn't have lasted two rounds, just look at the really pathetic guys he lost to. One shot to the gut from Chuvalo and Sharkey would've been looking for a place to lay down, just as he did when Fitz socked him there. Says something that Jeffries couldn't stop little Tom in 45 rounds when both Fitz and even Ruhlin could do it.

Not really Jeff's fault the talent pool was so shallow. Denver Ed Martin would've given him a better fight than poor Gus Ruhlin did. Jack Johnson as well. Jeff's manager even turned down the idea of fighting Bob Armstrong again. Wonder how Jeff's record would look if he had had to fight twenty or thirty real two-handed heavyweights?

Corbett still had a lot left for the first Jeffries fight. Fitz was an anomaly who fought quite well when he was old. Look at how well he did between the Jeffries fights.

Chuvalo would stop Ruhlin in two rounds? Chuvalo never stopped a decent fighter in his life in two rounds.

Look at all of Ruhlins losses? OK lets do that. 2 very early in his career. 4 of the other 5 were to Hall of Famers.
Chuvalo lost Pete Rademacher, King, Coreletti, McMurtery. Not exactly a murderers row there.

Are you still going to keep ignoring all of Chuvalo's embarrassing losses?

Cap, I have to ask you, are you being serious here?

One thing that annoys me, also, with Cap's argument is the size factor. He diminishes many people because of height or weight. What of Joe Choynski? Corbett, Johnson and Jeffries (among others) all said that little speedball was the trickiest man they ever faced and that he hit harder than they could have imagined. Hell, you tear down Sharkey because of height, but he's among the top 100 punchers of all time.