BoxRec

On October 30, 1974, Muhammad Ali beat George Foreman by an 8th round knockout in Kinshasa, Zaire ((present day nation of the Democratic Republic Congo (DRC)).



From 1974 till late 1977, was there any possibility that there could have been a second fight between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman?


If there would have been a second fight between Muhammad and George, do you think that George could have won? Or, was Ali's style just too problematic for Foreman, that George Foreman would never have beaten Muhammad Ali?



Please explain.

Foreman was in perfect shape and condition at 217 for his 1st Frazier fight.. He was brutal.. He was sharp.. He was quick.. He never had so much money or time to lay around to that point.. He had never gotten fat to that point... He was 38-0 with 35 KO's when he wiped out Frazier..

If he fought Ali that night, instead of Smokin' Joe, he would have had a better chance... You dull the knife just a fraction and it doesn't work.. Now, boxing skills George didn't really have in his first career ... He would have had to go after Ali with guns blazing and treat him like Norton and Frazier.

At the time I thought GF would win a rematch but I was wrong. The Jimmy Young fight answers the question.

GF from 1975-77 was good enough for the Dino Dennis' and old Fraziers', but in 1975-77, GF lost to, or would have lost to, Young, Ali, or Holmes.

Foreman couldn't box well at that time -- but that doesn't mean you can't beat a good boxer if you get on him and STAY on him... If you're physically bigger, stronger, tougher, and punch much harder, but you can't box??? You can't let a slick boxer make a boxing contest out of it and expect to win the thing.

If Foreman fought Ali and Young in the same physical condition he was in for his first Joe Frazier fight, he'd have a better chance.. It doesn't mean he has to punch non-stop for 15 rounds.. If Ali is laying on those super loose ropes, hiding behind his gloves -- take a few steps backwards towards the center of the ring.. Let the judges know that it takes 2 guys to make a fight..

Frazier handled the rope-a-dope strategy better in Ali-Frazier 1.. He threw very light punches and very easy punches at Ali's gloves.. Then when an opening occurred he threw harder.. He sewed all those rounds up on activity alone -- instead of exhausting himself punching gloves, arms, and shoulders.. But obviously if you fight like that you have to come into training camp already in fairly slender, walk around condition -- within 10 or 15 pounds of your fighting weight.. You can't be training off 40 or 50 pounds in a couple months and expect to haul ass for 15 on fight night.

Another thing is, Foreman wasn't in excellent physical condition for Michael Moorer, but he was 10 X smarter.. He let Moorer work, and work, and work, and get way ahead on all the scorecards.. Then when the kid slowed down for a minute - to catch some rest ... BOOM, it was over.

In Zaire, GF threw bomb after bomb, it was predictable. I agree, Frazier had the right idea, throw some petty pats, wait for an opening and then lower the boom.

Spinks' trainer had the right idea about the rope-a-dope. Hit the arms. Even if the judges aren't scoring the shots, you're opponent will find it harder to throw his own shots.

The rope-a-dope strategy has been proven not to work... Many have tired it throughout fistic history and more would do it were it effective... It's not.

The problem comes in trying to hide behind your arms, shoulders, and gloves... Either your mouth nose and eyes are open for uppercuts or your jaw, ears, and head are open for sharp hooks.. Same with trying to defend your body because going inside or outside your arms your opponent reaches your belly or short ribs.. Norton and Frazier boxed Ali intelligently for the most part when he tried that defense with the intention of exhausting them.. You don't go hog wild looking for the KO against a guy who's resting up and will come back at you ... You work patiently and skillfully and win the round.

And not many fighters can withstand that sort of incoming.......Ali had a granite chin, which he obviously over exploited....in ways that Kalan actually describes pretty well in his more lucid moments.
And most of his sparring partners knew he also had the same ability to absorb it to the body better than almost anyone else.

Norton described hitting Ali to the body with words along the lines of "pounding on iron".

And for most fighters, it's just not going to amount to a winning strategy.

BoxBuzz wrote:And not many fighters can withstand that sort of incoming.......Ali had a granite chin, which he obviously over exploited....in ways that Kalan actually describes pretty well in his more lucid moments.
And most of his sparring partners knew he also had the same ability to absorb it to the body better than almost anyone else.

Norton described hitting Ali to the body with words along the lines of "pounding on iron".

And for most fighters, it's just not going to amount to a winning strategy.

You haven't had a lucid moment to date BuzzBox

NOBODY takes it to the body that well.. Those ribs will ache.. Those organs will suffer.. That liver will scream bloody murder.

I guarantee you if a man with the size, strength, and punching power of Anthony Joshua hit Ali with a great body shot he'd cave him in... And Granite chins are something of a myth.. There are a very few people like Vitali Klitschko and Ollie McCall who you could never knock down with one punch -- but hit them hard enough again and again -- and their legs will start giving in.. No matter who your parents are or what favorable recessive genes you snagged -- or how big and powerful you grow -- you are not going to be invulnerable.. Valuev's legs were quavering in the 12th of the Haye fight.. That massive ol' head got hurt.. Ali was shaken in the Cooper fight and obviously hurt in the Frazier fight -- and those were teeny little Heavyweights who averaged 195.

I can't see how Foreman ever beats a still 'living' Ali.

Foreman was too one dimensional & had dreadful stamina.

Add in the fact that Ali would have had him raging again; that would have thrown him off his game even more.

I don't see another KO though: Ali W15.

The idea of the Jimmy Young fight was to tune up for an Ali rematch with a good boxer..

But before you fight Young you spend some time learning how to box. Right?? ..How many years did Foreman have between the Ali and Young fights??? I think you fight a bunch of opponents who are intermediate level boxers if that happens to be your main problem -- instead of smashing people dead in slugging contests.

When Foreman made his comeback 10 years later he did it right... He started out like a raw rookie and built up his skills through 20 fights before he fought Holyfield... He knew he needed more patience, better pacing, and better strategic thinking like a boxer and better skills.. That's the right approach and I think he won the Moorer fight because he took his time so well and never for a second got anxious or lost his concentration like a young George might.. Moorer's corner actually got nervous and a little anxious that something might go wrong -- and they had an insurmountable lead on the cards.. Everything was going Moorer's way.. But Foreman was so implacable Moorer got a little freaked by it..

Kalan wrote:The idea of the Jimmy Young fight was to tune up for an Ali rematch with a good boxer..

But before you fight Young you spend some time learning how to box. Right?? ..How many years did Foreman have between the Ali and Young fights??? I think you fight a bunch of opponents who are intermediate level boxers if that happens to be your main problem -- instead of smashing people dead in slugging contests.

When Foreman made his comeback 10 years later he did it right... He started out like a raw rookie and built up his skills through 20 fights before he fought Holyfield... He knew he needed more patience, better pacing, and better strategic thinking like a boxer and better skills.. That's the right approach and I think he won the Moorer fight because he took his time so well and never for a second got anxious or lost his concentration like a young George might.. Moorer's corner actually got nervous and a little anxious that something might go wrong -- and they had an insurmountable lead on the cards.. Everything was going Moorer's way.. But Foreman was so implacable Moorer got a little freaked by it..

What was your record?

It was better than your's.

Kalan wrote:It was better than your's.

What was your record?

A winning one. What was yours?

Kalan wrote:A winning one. What was yours?

3-1, what was your record?

Hold the phone, I swear I saw Kalan reply "Better than Wilt's" ??? and now it's gone.


Mine's exactly the same as Wilt's.....no better no worse. He and I were probably at or about the same level in the sport.

BuzzBox... You were never promoted world wide as an upcoming challenger for the Heavyweight Championship of the World held by Muhammad Ali... A fight Chamberlain and Ali did a number of TV appearances for -- but that Ali was never serious about signing a contract to go through with.

Ali used mealy mouthed statements like "I accept your challenge... After I finish with a few more contenders ... IF I beat them..."

The fact is that a Wilt vs Ali contract was negotiated and drawn up, and Chamberlain called Ali on it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Ali never ONCE responded as to WHEN he might finally decide to sign his end of the contract...

You know...if you repeat this stuff over and over and over again.....it will inevitably be repeated quite a few times.

And yet...despite your passionate and verbose repetition it is no more true today, than it ever was. The facts of the matter seem unaffected to this point in time.

I know you're testing the chinese water torture theory to see if such a relentless and insidious process can change facts......and so far, the facts remained static.

However....I'm happy to check back with you in five years to determine if there has been any tear in the fabric of the universe created by your efforts.

Kalan wrote:BuzzBox... You were never promoted world wide as an upcoming challenger for the Heavyweight Championship of the World held by Muhammad Ali.

Yipes, nearly forgot to give you credit for this correct observation. Please accept my apology. When you're right you're right.

Kalan wrote:The rope-a-dope strategy has been proven not to work... Many have tired it throughout fistic history and more would do it were it effective... It's not.

The problem comes in trying to hide behind your arms, shoulders, and gloves... Either your mouth nose and eyes are open for uppercuts or your jaw, ears, and head are open for sharp hooks.. Same with trying to defend your body because going inside or outside your arms your opponent reaches your belly or short ribs.. Norton and Frazier boxed Ali intelligently for the most part when he tried that defense with the intention of exhausting them.. You don't go hog wild looking for the KO against a guy who's resting up and will come back at you ... You work patiently and skillfully and win the round.

I think Foreman could have overcome the rope a dope if he did what Leon did; hit the arms. I think arm hitting is underrated. Its not a scoring shot but a heavy puncher can kill someone's offense with it. A guy named Rocky utilized it pretty well.

Tony1244 wrote:

Kalan wrote:The rope-a-dope strategy has been proven not to work... Many have tired it throughout fistic history and more would do it were it effective... It's not.

The problem comes in trying to hide behind your arms, shoulders, and gloves... Either your mouth nose and eyes are open for uppercuts or your jaw, ears, and head are open for sharp hooks.. Same with trying to defend your body because going inside or outside your arms your opponent reaches your belly or short ribs.. Norton and Frazier boxed Ali intelligently for the most part when he tried that defense with the intention of exhausting them.. You don't go hog wild looking for the KO against a guy who's resting up and will come back at you ... You work patiently and skillfully and win the round.

I think Foreman could have overcome the rope a dope if he did what Leon did; hit the arms. I think arm hitting is underrated. Its not a scoring shot but a heavy puncher can kill someone's offense with it. A guy named Rocky utilized it pretty well.

Leon Spinks had better stamina than Foreman.

I couldn't envisage Foreman throwing all those punches to Ali's arms without collapsing with exhaustion himself.

Syntax Error wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Kalan wrote:The rope-a-dope strategy has been proven not to work... Many have tired it throughout fistic history and more would do it were it effective... It's not.

The problem comes in trying to hide behind your arms, shoulders, and gloves... Either your mouth nose and eyes are open for uppercuts or your jaw, ears, and head are open for sharp hooks.. Same with trying to defend your body because going inside or outside your arms your opponent reaches your belly or short ribs.. Norton and Frazier boxed Ali intelligently for the most part when he tried that defense with the intention of exhausting them.. You don't go hog wild looking for the KO against a guy who's resting up and will come back at you ... You work patiently and skillfully and win the round.

I think Foreman could have overcome the rope a dope if he did what Leon did; hit the arms. I think arm hitting is underrated. Its not a scoring shot but a heavy puncher can kill someone's offense with it. A guy named Rocky utilized it pretty well.

Leon Spinks had better stamina than Foreman.

I couldn't envisage Foreman throwing all those punches to Ali's arms without collapsing with exhaustion himself.

If Foreman knew what he knew when he was older when he was younger he could have paced himself better. In Zaire he was throwing wild shots. Well aimed hard shots on the arms in between pity pat shots may have done the trick.

True... Foreman showed he had stamina when he was weighing 250.. Basically 33 pounds heavier than his best performance..

Foreman showed no sign of tiring in the 1st Frazier fight... He threw a lot of sharp punches without loading up and it looked like he could continue doing that all night.. You DO have a major problem with stamina when you start camp at 275 and take off 50-odd pounds.. That's nuts! ... You damned sure know all about it too...If you track your times for your roadwork... or spar a lot of rounds with fresh sparring partners... you know your stamina is shiit.

Tony1244 wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

I think Foreman could have overcome the rope a dope if he did what Leon did; hit the arms. I think arm hitting is underrated. Its not a scoring shot but a heavy puncher can kill someone's offense with it. A guy named Rocky utilized it pretty well.

Leon Spinks had better stamina than Foreman.

I couldn't envisage Foreman throwing all those punches to Ali's arms without collapsing with exhaustion himself.

If Foreman knew what he knew when he was older when he was younger he could have paced himself better. In Zaire he was throwing wild shots. Well aimed hard shots on the arms in between pity pat shots may have done the trick.

Heard Foreman say years later (Foreman II), if he knew what he knew now he would have stepped back and won the fight with his jab; I believe it would have worked I believe he could have out jabbed a 1974 Ali. Fight may have looked a lot like Hearns-Hill.

APerno wrote:Heard Foreman say years later (Foreman II), if he knew what he knew now he would have stepped back and won the fight with his jab; I believe it would have worked I believe he could have out jabbed a 1974 Ali. Fight may have looked a lot like Hearns-Hill.

That sounds really good... Take a step back and use the jab... The problem with that is Foreman didn't HAVE the right weapon when he was young.

You see, Foreman had the Pulev, Peter, Rahman, Berbick, McCall, Bruno, Coetzee, Norton, Willard, Carnera, Baer style power jab.. He lacked the Corbett, Johnson, Tunney, Holmes, Young, Klitschko, Haye, Joshua style pinking jab.. A super sophisticated jab that you don't put any strength on.. You use stance, balance, footwork, feinting, timing, and deadly accuracy.. An effortless jab that takes years and thousands of rounds of sparring to master..

Such a jab never gets tired because you're catching your opponent coming in.. When he steps in with his jab he's already nailed dead in the face.. When he tries to counter your jab he's countering a feint and punching air -- and you catch him when he retracts the missed right, or when he rolls up from ducking a counter that never came.. Either way he looks like a foolish rook and gets jabbed square in the face.

If he's laying on the ropes and you want to use the jab??? You simply stand off of him a couple feet an maintain your fighting stance.. He can't very well just lay there on the ropes waiting for you to punch when you're in fighting form and wait for HIM to do something.. It looks like you're READY to fight in your fighting stance and he's doing nothing but lazing on the ropes.. You tell HIM "Come on FIGHT!!" ... So as soon as he moves off the ropes left or right - with his FIRST step - you jab him dead in the face.. It's impossible for him to maintain a boxing stance laying on the ropes - so the split-second he tries to move OFF the ropes he's vulnerable as Hell.

Even if he's got his gloves together and catches your jab you instantaneously rip a right hook around his guard and smash him in the side of the head.. Then you immediately smash him with hard combinations before he can get his stance, balance, footwork, and defense organized.. A couple episodes like that and he's not going to be laying on the ropes anymore -- because you're beating the shiit out of him and scoring points whenever he's foolish enough to lay on the ropes challenging you to waste your energy... all because you have a superior jab and know how to use it ... and he doesn't.