BoxRec

Which in your view was Boxing's Greatest Sin?

Johnson never took a dive to Jess Willard. Anyone who believes that cock and bull story Johnson told probably believes Willie Pep once won a round without throwing a punch too. I quote the Kansas giant on the dive story: "If he took a dive he should have done it sooner. It was hotter than hell down there." It was 110 degrees in the shade, and it went 26 rounds. People had to be carried out of the arena due to heat stroke and the referee even had to be switched out during the contest. Bullshit.

Chippo wrote:Resto/Collins

Oooof, good call. A shocker that was

Tyson - Never a more cowardly nor sinful act ever committed in a boxing ring than that, although James Butler Jr might have something to say about that.

Chippo wrote:Resto/Collins

That's the correct answer, Sir.

First of all, Johnson didn't take a dive against Willard.

Of those to pick from, I would go with Duran quitting against Leonard. Just because he was getting beaten badly he was not man enough to go on. Most of us have probably seen hundreds of fights where a guy did not do that in similar situations.
He cheated the fans paying to see the fight. His purse should have been held up and he should have been suspended. Instead he has pretty much got a free pass form many people.

After that I would go with Tyson against Holyfield from those to pick from.

Ambling Alp II wrote:First of all, Johnson didn't take a dive against Willard.

Of those to pick from, I would go with Duran quitting against Leonard. Just because he was getting beaten badly he was not man enough to go on. Most of us have probably seen hundreds of fights where a guy did not do that in similar situations.
He cheated the fans paying to see the fight. His purse should have been held up and he should have been suspended. Instead he has pretty much got a free pass form many people.

After that I would go with Tyson against Holyfield from those to pick from.

When you explain it like that, I have to agree. Though I feel taking away 15 rounds is a bigger sin.

The sanctioning bodies. The WBC and WBA.

When a boxer takes himself out of a fight....that's one level of sin.....but it's not the worst......
It's an honest call, on behalf of one of the principals. And there are even degrees of honor about that.

When your corner does it to protect you....should not even be on the list. E.G. Joe Frazier...Kostya .... When a fighter KNOW's he's beaten....seems another time to simply ignore it...as it is not a sin. E.G. Sonny Liston...knew he was not going anywhere in either fight.....seems no sin to me.

Duran?.....well he seemed arrogant...and wasn't being humble....so I'd count that as a sin....but not a huge one. He was calling it, on his own terms...and admitting defeat....though it was a lot of odd body language with it.

When you CHEAT to attempt to win....I see that as a bigger sin. Cast's under your glove (if proven) biting an ear, blatant fouling incessantly...(especially in a winning endeavor) seem like sins to me. But not the more subtle fouling, like holding, and pushing...I'm talkin groin shots, and the like. Butler's shot was not during the fight....so though it's a sin, it's status is sort of that of Larry jumping off a car to take out Berbick......sort of non boxing related but a flat out crime.

But the biggest sins........are not committed by the fighters....they are engaged in by referee's and or judges who are likely either corrupt, or inept. These are the big sins in my book.
Richard Steele imposing a loss on Meldrick would be near the top. Lennox not getting credit for the win over Holy in fight 1 seems a good call.

HomicideHenry wrote:Johnson never took a dive to Jess Willard. Anyone who believes that cock and bull story Johnson told probably believes Willie Pep once won a round without throwing a punch too. I quote the Kansas giant on the dive story: "If he took a dive he should have done it sooner. It was hotter than hell down there." It was 110 degrees in the shade, and it went 26 rounds. People had to be carried out of the arena due to heat stroke and the referee even had to be switched out during the contest. Bullshit.

BOTH boxers put their gloves on in full view of the other’s team IN THE RING. As you can plainly see NEITHER COMBATANT WRAPPED THEIR HANDS FOR A 45-ROUND HEAVYWEIGHT FIGHT... This insured to BOTH teams that NEITHER BOXER would throw heavy bombs that could damage their hands or KO their opponent... and neither DID. The KO punch was a real PHONY that didn’t make contact. The newspapers reported that "Certainly no KO punch landed"

NOBODY has EVER produced a still photo showing that long, loaded right---a punch master boxer Jack Johnson looked all the way in, having boxed professionally for over 20 years as a highly praised defensive master---landing on Jack Johnson’s jaw.

In Jess Willard’s next fight (after a dubious exhibition with Moran with no judges present and Willard weighing a very FAT 259), Jack Dempsey made certain to wrap his hands like crazy. Jack threw big bombs throughout the fight, smashing Willard and battering and crushing the HELL out of Willard’s face (Jess was no master like Johnson and couldn’t defend himself well). By NOT wrapping their fists, both Johnson and Willard insured that this would be strictly a boxing match—favoring the master boxer—and that Johnson could FAKE a KO punch landing on his jaw whenever he received the signal from his wife that she had possession of all the documents and that they were all in order.

Newspapers even reported that right after the 25th round Johnson sent word to his wife to leave the area because he was ending things in the next round... The newspapers ALSO reported that just before the "KO" Johnson searched for his wife's box seat -- to make sure she had exited the arena.

Read Jack Johnson’s autobiography. He goes into detail about throwing this fight.

Another lie about the fight was the hot temperature... It was a balmy day as reported by the newspapers... About 80 degrees.

It was the practice of the time to do the weigh in, taped hands, gloves in the ring BEFORE the first bell... Watch any fight from that point, there's nothing unusual about what you just said... And kalan, again, Jack Johnson was the biggest storyteller in boxing history... He reguarly made stuff up on a continuous basis (like how he once fought and killed a shark while swimming around Coney Island) and nobody believed his story about the dive. Again, look at his record before and after Jess Willard. He was more than on his way out. Stop believing in fairytales.

Watch the film... Willard feints and then throws a tremendous bomb of a right hand on Johnson's jaw, and he falls, rolls over, his arm flips over his head, and he doesn't move a muscle... Even Johnson's greatest supporter Nat Fleischer thought the dive never happened. Come on man.

Homicide Henry you're living in ZU ZU LAND... You have to wrap your hands if you throw big bombs and NO STILL PHOTO shows it landing... It was a TOTAL FAKE PUNCH all the way... just like you see in the movies where all the big KO's are big loaded rights.. Feinted my ass.

Here's a written report on the temperature on the day of the fight http://www.perno.com/Boxing/willard-heat

OK you have to ask APerno... He has the full story on the temperature the day of the fight... For some reason it's no longer available with this URL

HomicideHenry wrote:look at his record before and after Jess Willard. He was more than on his way out. Stop believing in fairytales

Right... YOU LOOK AT HIS RECORD!!!! Johnson won his next 13 fights in a row... Including beating Pat Lester when he was 48 years old...

In sharp contrast Willard was 2-2 the rest of the way... Getting knocked out BADLY by Dempsey and Firpo... What a bum.

I believe my own eyes. The film is plain as day. I don't need revisionist history. Johnson was winning for the first 18 rounds, and started to fade under the heat and from Willard's punches. Mind you, even though Dempsey defeated Willard even Jack said Willard hit him the hardest of his career. We're talking about a man who carried around 500 pound bales of cotton. It's not hard to believe the truth Kalan, Johnson was older and slower and had been inactive for quite a long time and was completely broke. In his prime he'd of won, but in this match? He gave a great account of himself against a limited giant but burned out. Try throwing BOMBS for nearly 20 rounds... I don't care who you are, you're going to get dead tired and defenseless eventually.

Kalan wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:look at his record before and after Jess Willard. He was more than on his way out. Stop believing in fairytales

Right... YOU LOOK AT HIS RECORD!!!! Johnson won his next 13 fights in a row... Including beating Pat Lester when he was 48 years old...

In sharp contrast Willard was 2-2 the rest of the way... Getting knocked out BADLY by Dempsey and Firpo... What a bum.

Yes and the majority of those wins were AGAINST pro debuters and novices.. why can't you factor that in?.. as for Willard, going 2-2, it was against top contenders and inactivity played a large part of it. I'll take losses to Dempsey and Firpo, over fifteen wins against nobodies.

Anyway the Havana Daily Post...If you could ever find a copy of the newspaper online ... reported that the high temperature on April 5, 1915 in Havana was 70.7 degrees... and the low temperature was 59 degrees... It was a Spring day so it figures.

HomicideHenry wrote: even though Dempsey defeated Willard even Jack said Willard hit him the hardest of his career

Dempsey did NOT say that... Dempsey in his autobiography stated that John Lester Johnson "Hit me harder than I've ever been hit anywhere, at any time, with any thing... His body punch broke 3 of my ribs like matchsticks."

HomicideHenry wrote:I'll take losses to Dempsey and Firpo, over fifteen wins against nobodies.

I won't... Not with the horrific beatings Willard took... The doctor and dental bills have to be more than the check... I'll take the 15 easy wins... People are paying to see the ex Heavyweight Champion of the World... not your opponent.

Kalan wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote: even though Dempsey defeated Willard even Jack said Willard hit him the hardest of his career

Dempsey did NOT say that... Dempsey in his autobiography stated that John Lester Johnson "Hit me harder than I've ever been hit anywhere, at any time, with any thing... His body punch broke 3 of my ribs like matchsticks."

Jess Willard, in the second round of their fight, landed an uppercut that nearly saved him the championship. Dempsey threw EVERYTHING he had in the first round, and for the next two rounds wasn't as dangerous. He was spent, and got caught and Dempsey remarked years later that had he been hit one more time he'd of been knocked out. Unfortunately for Willard he was already spent and broken (literally) and didn't follow it up.

HomicideHenry wrote: Jess Willard, in the second round of their fight, landed an uppercut that nearly saved him the championship. Dempsey threw EVERYTHING he had in the first round, and for the next two rounds wasn't as dangerous. He was spent, and got caught and Dempsey remarked years later that had he been hit one more time he'd of been knocked out

Dempsey even admitted he was a story spinner... He said hanging around Jack Kearns for years he learned the technique of great story telling...which means you dramatize everything to sound like it's near life and death...like you're literally escaping from the jaws of death... Jack Johnson did the same thing of course -- but Johnson seldom gave himself the worst of it like Dempsey often did... That's why Dempsey was loved... He told the French when he went over there "If Carpentier hit me one inch lower he would have knocked me out cold with that right hand." Dempsey admired Tunney. He said he came out at the bell and threw a left hook at Tunney and missed by a mile Tunney landed a right hand "That had it landed any lower would have decked me, and there's a fair chance it would have knocked me out."

But for Willard, Dempsey was slightly punched out in the first -- and with the pounding and crush of the fans after the round it made it 3 X worse... He had to get back in the ring in a hurry for the next round and had no rest... But he won all 3 rounds super easy, he just dialed it back a bit in the 2nd.. In the 3rd Dempsey opened up with smashing double left-hooks rib shot and then the jaw, often followed with brutal uppercuts.. He couldn't miss and Willard couldn't hit him.. Dempsey did the most damage in the 3rd.. Nobody was going to let Willard come out for the 4th after taking one look at him.

Willard was a horrific liar and never gave himself the worst of it.. He said the heat was 115 degrees in Havana.. and everything would always have worked out in his favor if it weren't for horrible luck.. People disliked Willard when they got to know him.. You can hear and feel the contempt for Willard in both Dempsey's and Johnson's biographies.. They didn't like him.. Another guy Dempsey wasn't fond of was Carl Morris.. He called him a "cheap bastard."

As already stated, Resto Collins isn't up there and Margarito deserves a shout. These examples are a much greater sin than what choices are presented.

IKSRTFO wrote:As already stated, Resto Collins isn't up there and Margarito deserves a shout. These examples are a much greater sin than what choices are presented.

I agree. Sorry that I didn't think about them.

DEFINITELY MargaCheato... Tyson trying to bite ears off was spur of the moment. What Cheato did was premeditated. He blackjacked Cotto with plaster casts. Mosley was infuriated when Richardson told him about it. I've never seen Shane go after somebody and stay on them with that degree of fury.

What about the black bottle? The one that I mixed by Panama Ray Lewis? Can we put it into the annals of boxing greatest sins?