BoxRec

First off, I just want to say that I'm pretty new to boxing history so bear with me here if I sound dumb. John L. Sullivan was a boxer who fought during the late 19th century.
http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/10547
Now I recently watched a series of videos where Bert Randolph Sugar discussed his list of the top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. At some point in these videos, he brought up that he would place John L. Sullivan around the 12th or 13th spot, but of course, he didn't explain why because these videos were dedicated to his top 10 heavyweights. What I want to know is, how can he even consider including John L. Sullivan as the 12th or 13th greatest heavyweight since there is almost no footage of his fights. I just don't understand how he can even consider him as a great with such little amount of footage.

mojo_da_kidd wrote:there is almost no footage of his fights. I just don't understand how he can even consider him as a great with such little amount of footage.

That's a winner.

He's considered one of the great heavyweights because #1- He popularized the sport of boxing, especially the Marquis of Queensbury rules, in a time when prizefighting was considered lower than rat baiting and dog fighting, and #2- Despite the most popular and powerful syndication in the world (Gazette) as well as all the major boxing clubs working together to dethrone him Sullivan remained undefeated for twelve years.

He was also the first man to really challenge the world. Others before him just battled the English champion, and called it a career. Sullivan made sure he challenged the best America had to offer, as well as the best Europe had to offer. He did two nationwide tours and I believe two international tours. In his prime nobody seemed capable of lasting four rounds with him unless they hit canvas a dozen times. Then you throw in the handful of legendary bareknuckle contests he done, and you have America's first icon other than George Washington.

He was like Michael Jordan, Brad Pitt, etc all rolled into one at the turn of the century because he was the number one attraction everywhere he went. This was a man more beloved, despised and respected than any other boxer in history. Can you imagine a boxer losing today and the press call it a national calamity? Can you imagine a boxer showing up drunk and asking the audience to forgive him and people cheer and still call him the champion? It'd never happen. But it did for Sullivan.

Sidney Carton wrote:

mojo_da_kidd wrote:there is almost no footage of his fights. I just don't understand how he can even consider him as a great with such little amount of footage.

That's a winner.

Amen. Gee, he must not be good because there was no film back then.
The truth is, we really don't know how good Sullivan was. He bridged the sport from the bareknuckles era to the gloved era.
I don't he could have been terrible. At the age of 33 and not having fought in three years, he managed to last until the 21st round against Corbett. (For what it is worth, he did deck Corbett once in the fight.) He had to have been at least decent to have been able to do that.

I rate him behind the mid-level champions like Corbett, Fitz, Sharkey, Schmeling, Charles, Walcott, Baer, Patterson, and Norton.
Ahead of the lower-level champion like Hart, Burns, Willard, Carnera, Braddock, and Leon Spinks.

He's obviously rough around the edges and small by modern standards, while big for the time (though he fought similar sized opponents). But he also he speed and stamina that allowed him to beat loads of good fighters both bareknucle and gloved.

Some good wins, Paddy Ryan, Charlie Mitchell, Jake Kilraine, records are pretty poor from back then too.

well i know, we can't assess how good he was since there is like no footage of him. that's what i meant when i said how could bert sugar even have considered him a great since there is nothing to consider him with. he could be the greatest of all time, but almost no footage to prove it. so i just don't think we should discuss him much when talking about the greats because nobody can really know.

They didn't have "footage" in Sullivan's prime as a boxer... The fact that he was undefeated for so long... enjoyed worldwide fame... and could absorb killer punches as well as land them speaks loudly enough... He wasn't a great technician, but certainly a great fighter nonetheless and historically important.

mojo_da_kidd wrote:well i know, we can't assess how good he was since there is like no footage of him. that's what i meant when i said how could bert sugar even have considered him a great since there is nothing to consider him with. he could be the greatest of all time, but almost no footage to prove it. so i just don't think we should discuss him much when talking about the greats because nobody can really know.

would you consider a 1927 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow a great automobile ?

HomicideHenry wrote:He's considered one of the great heavyweights because #1- He popularized the sport of boxing, especially the Marquis of Queensbury rules, in a time when prizefighting was considered lower than rat baiting and dog fighting, and #2- Despite the most popular and powerful syndication in the world (Gazette) as well as all the major boxing clubs working together to dethrone him Sullivan remained undefeated for twelve years.

He was also the first man to really challenge the world. Others before him just battled the English champion, and called it a career. Sullivan made sure he challenged the best America had to offer, as well as the best Europe had to offer. He did two nationwide tours and I believe two international tours. In his prime nobody seemed capable of lasting four rounds with him unless they hit canvas a dozen times. Then you throw in the handful of legendary bareknuckle contests he done, and you have America's first icon other than George Washington.

He was like Michael Jordan, Brad Pitt, etc all rolled into one at the turn of the century because he was the number one attraction everywhere he went. This was a man more beloved, despised and respected than any other boxer in history. Can you imagine a boxer losing today and the press call it a national calamity? Can you imagine a boxer showing up drunk and asking the audience to forgive him and people cheer and still call him the champion? It'd never happen. But it did for Sullivan.

John L. Sullivan was like all of today's sports idols(aint going to call them heroes) and top box-office Hollywood actors and actresses
(and aint going to call any of them "Stars")
all rolled into one
but back in 1890

One of the great lines of the day was.., "Shake the hand that shook the hand of John L Sullivan."

Old timers were still repeating that line in the 1950's and 60's about a man who died 4 decades earlier... You never hear that said about Corbett, Dempsey, Louis, or the other icons of Boxing... Maybe because John L was like George Washington in a way... The FIRST Heavyweight Champion of the Queensberry era -- and the LAST of the Heavyweight Champions of the London Prize Rules, bare knuckle era... He was very revered and special.

Kalan wrote:One of the great lines of the day was.., "Shake the hand that shook the hand of John L Sullivan."

Old timers were still repeating that line in the 1950's and 60's about a man who died 4 decades earlier... You never hear that said about Corbett, Dempsey, Louis, or the other icons of Boxing... Maybe because John L was like George Washington in a way... The FIRST Heavyweight Champion of the Queensberry era -- and the LAST of the Heavyweight Champions of the London Prize Rules, bare knuckle era... He was very revered and special.

yeah,we had a thread way back on the various hands that shook the hand of John L. Sullivan.
but I could'nt find it to bump it up.
I think Jack Dempsey may have been the main link from his resturant in NYC.
I dont know if Dempsey ever shook hands with John L. Sullivan but he did shake hands with Jess Willard who actually did shake hands
with John L. Sullivan when they were photographed together in a studio not too long after Willard won the HW championship in 1915.
also there was an episode of THE TALES OF WELLS FARGO that aired in 1961 called The Hand that Shook the Hand
(with Claude Akins as John L. Sullivan).