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Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 28 Sep 2017, 14:14
by cfang
Just did this on the train. Views? Who should be in or out? T1 is pretty solid I think.
Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Tier 1
Floyd
Manny
RJJ
Hopkins
Ward
Whitaker
Tier 2
Calzaghe
JC Chavez
Barrera
Morales
Lennox
Evander
Marquez
Froch
Corrales
Castillo
Trinidad
DLH
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 29 Sep 2017, 20:05
by Ambling Alp II
I pretty agree with your first Tier; except for Ward. I don't think he belongs with the rest of them.
There are some guys in Tier 2 that would take out:
Castillo and Morales don't belong with the rest of these guys in Tier 2. I would put Mosley, Toney, and Wright in Tier 2. Holyfield in the early 1990s would be Tier 1.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 29 Sep 2017, 20:08
by SaadOffTheDeck
Ward is a tier too high, holyfield is a tier too low.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 29 Sep 2017, 20:19
by BoxBuzz
I like Barrera in there, but not sure how you excuse Morales from the group...I think MAB was a shade better, but not sure how you separate them into fully different categories.
I'm thinkin' Ward might not make the top cut as well. And I like Evander right where he is. Though close to the top tier.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 29 Sep 2017, 22:03
by Seamus
Excluding lower weights ???
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 29 Sep 2017, 22:13
by jamamb
Froch wasnt as good as the others
Ppl say Morales and Castillo dont belong with him
Guys like Mosley and Toney arent even put on his level
He was never any better than the Kessler he battled with the first time, though i take my hat off to his willingness to challenge himself.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 30 Sep 2017, 07:17
by cfang
Seamus wrote:Excluding lower weights ???
Yes I must admit I don't know that much about the flys and bantams and the like. Feather and up for me really so didn't want to throw in some names i hadn't really seen much of. Are there any?
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 30 Sep 2017, 08:26
by Seamus
Ricardo Lopez
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
Chatchai Sasakul
Veeraphol Sahaprom
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 01 Oct 2017, 13:44
by cfang
Not dissing Lennox as he's a great fighter but he fought Tyson and evander past their prime and didn't fight view for whatever reason. He was also koed by McCall and Rahman. Great fighter but not up there with t1. Evander deserves it more as other posters have mentioned.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 01 Oct 2017, 13:45
by cfang
cfang wrote:Not dissing Lennox as he's a great fighter but he fought Tyson and evander past their prime and didn't fight bowe for whatever reason. He was also koed by McCall and Rahman. Great fighter but not up there with t1. Evander deserves it more as other posters have mentioned.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 01 Oct 2017, 14:57
by SaadOffTheDeck
Seamus wrote:Ricardo Lopez
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
Chatchai Sasakul
Veeraphol Sahaprom
I'd rate Roman over all these guys.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 01 Oct 2017, 15:00
by Counter-puncher
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Seamus wrote:Ricardo Lopez
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
Chatchai Sasakul
Veeraphol Sahaprom
I'd rate Roman over all these guys.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 02 Oct 2017, 07:29
by cfang
Ah so its not that you want lewis as top tier, you want to remove jones and replace him with lewis? Well jones certainly has gone on many many years past his prime. RJJ apart from the montell griffin dq, he was undefeated for 15 years and in that time beat toney, mcallum and hopkins. He really went downhill fast thats for sure but id put him in the top tier instead of lewis as for those 15 years he seemed unbeatable. lewis was amazing and its no fault of his own but he never beat another great fighter in their prime - he was kind of frozen out of the bowe/holy/tyson years following that mccall ko. by the time he got to tyson he was a shell of his former self and holy was on the downside in a big way too (post losing to moorer). lennox may well belong in that top tier but i suppose I'm thinking he never really proved it. if he'd have fought bowe, tyson and holy in the early mid 90s and beat them all, he'd be a cert to be in there.
golden oldie wrote:cfang wrote:Not dissing Lennox as he's a great fighter but he fought Tyson and evander past their prime and didn't fight view for whatever reason. He was also koed by McCall and Rahman. Great fighter but not up there with t1. Evander deserves it more as other posters have mentioned.
So can we just get this right?
Getting KO'd by
Tarver
Johnson
Danny Green
Lebedev
and Maccarinelli makes you a top tier fighter,
but getting KO'd by
McCall
and
Rahman
makes you a 2nd tier fighter?
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 02 Oct 2017, 10:30
by Ambling Alp II
If you want to argue Lewis should be top Tier, fine. however to think those fights Jones had when he was way past are relevant is ridiculous.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 02 Oct 2017, 20:27
by Ambling Alp II
Remember, you said on another thread that you don't count rematches. Therefore, the wins Lewis had in the rematches against McCall, Rahman, and Holyfield don't count. So by your own reasoning, Lewis had three opponents that he didn't beat.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 10:55
by Ambling Alp II
golden oldie wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:
Remember, you said on another thread that you don't count rematches. Therefore, the wins Lewis had in the rematches against McCall, Rahman, and Holyfield don't count. So by your own reasoning, Lewis had three opponents that he didn't beat.
I said rematches aren't as important as the original fight. That doesn't alter the FACT that Lewis beat everyman he ever faced. If defeats are to be held against him then logic dictates defeats have got to be held against every other fighter. The excuses are irrelevant, age, lack of commitment in preparation, whoring, drinking,blah, blah, blah.
Oops, I left out the disgustingly crooked American judge Eugina Williams.
Rematches count for something, but not as much as the first fight. When if makes your guy look better anyway. Good to know. Thanks for the clarification.
Oops you left out the American judges who gave Lewis the decision over Mercer.
Oops you forgot to mention the American referee who let Lewis hold and hit Grant.
Oops you forgot to mention the English judge who scored the first Holyfield-Lewis a draw.
Oops you forgot to mention the American judges that gave Lewis the decision in his scintillating performance in the 2nd Holyfield fight.
Those foreign fighters can't get a break can they?
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 10:59
by Ambling Alp II
golden oldie wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:If you want to argue Lewis should be top Tier, fine. however to think those fights Jones had when he was way past are relevant is ridiculous.
Tell me, what is it like to idolise a fighter to such an extent that you selectively judge the last THIRTEEN YEARS of his career? Crediting the wins, but dismissing the stoppage defeats as being solely down to age.
I don't idolise Roy Jones. I have ripped many times.
What it like saying Jones was past it when he was obviously was? Well he was at least 36-48 years old for those fights. It's like a person who uses his brain and realizes Jones was well past in those fight.
It is not like someone saying the 32 year old Hagler was so far past it that i was embarrassing when he lost to Leonard, just because he hates Leonard.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 15:12
by IKSRTFO
cfang wrote:Seamus wrote:Excluding lower weights ???
Yes I must admit I don't know that much about the flys and bantams and the like. Feather and up for me really so didn't want to throw in some names i hadn't really seen much of. Are there any?
You know enough to have Pacquiao, Morales and Barrera on the on the list. They all have fought below feather. Morales arguably was the best at bantamweight.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 15:19
by littlepug
McCallum, Nunn, Norris, Canizales, Carbajal and Humberto Gonzales are worth a shout, oh and the Korean light fly whos name escapes me but made a million defences
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 16:15
by SaadOffTheDeck
IKSRTFO wrote:cfang wrote:Seamus wrote:Excluding lower weights ???
Yes I must admit I don't know that much about the flys and bantams and the like. Feather and up for me really so didn't want to throw in some names i hadn't really seen much of. Are there any?
You know enough to have Pacquiao, Morales and Barrera on the on the list. They all have fought below feather. Morales arguably was the best at bantamweight.
Lol, what Morales? Not Erik.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 16:26
by paddy chavez
How is Chavez lower than Hopkins or ward .....
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 17:16
by SaadOffTheDeck
Hopkins was a much better fighter. Chavez was greater than ward.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 03 Oct 2017, 19:32
by Kalan
Hopkins lost to guys Ward knocked out -- like Chad Dawson... I'm certain Ward would beat Jermain Taylor and Joe Calzaghe as well, quite easily.
Julio Cesar Chavez lost to Pernell Whitaker -- who was beaten by De La Hoya and Trinidad -- and Whitaker was kind of a punk-ass puncher -- no power.
Re: Best fighters since 1990 (excl lower weights)
Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 07:53
by IKSRTFO
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:IKSRTFO wrote:cfang wrote:
Yes I must admit I don't know that much about the flys and bantams and the like. Feather and up for me really so didn't want to throw in some names i hadn't really seen much of. Are there any?
You know enough to have Pacquiao, Morales and Barrera on the on the list. They all have fought below feather. Morales arguably was the best at bantamweight.
Lol, what Morales? Not Erik.
I meant, that was his best weight IMO. But it wasn't Bantam, it was super bantam.