Bobick vs Norton: what happened?

[tagjohnson]

Looking at the Bobick/Norton is confusing. It wasn't just a case of someone getting caught early or an over-rated fighter being exposed. After Kenny caught Duane with one good shot, Bobick went to the ropes and just stood there getting hammered with a scared look on his face until he went down. He didn't try to fight back, cover up, clinch, or anything. He didn't hold his gloves up correctly to protect himself. What happened? How does a fighter with an extensive amateur and professional career react like that? He just stood there like a kid being beaten on by the school bully who's to scared to fight back.

[Kalan]

He wasn't ready for a fight like that... Norton was tremendously insulted that his buddies Joe Frazier and Eddie Futch would use him as a target who Bobick could cut his title contending teeth on... Bobick was 38-0 and ranked 4th... He was WAY overrated and Norton knew it.

Bobick was slow... powerless... defenseless... uncoordinated... silly... soft... fatuous... heedless... and he had 2 left feet... He was a very unlikely individual to show up in the world rankings.. He got crushed in similar fashion by John Tate... Kallie Knoteze... and George Chaplin.

[Flump]

Bobick says he got caught by a shot in his throat, which may explain why he froze. More likely is that Norton was a huge step up in class and Bobick just couldn't deal with the pressure he was under from Norton's assault, in an environment we just wasn't up to. It probably didn't help Bobick that the KKK reportedly sent Norton a one way plane ticket to Africa just before the fight.

Joe Frazier told Eddie Futch that Norton was too big a risk for Bobick but he ignored him.

[Ambling Alp II]

Going in a lot of people thought Bobick would win. There was a lot of interest in it. It was a broadcast in primetime on network TV. At the time, it was a huge win for Norton. Over the years, it morphed into Bobick being a stiff and Norton gets no credit for it.

[Kalan]

Bobick says he got caught by a shot in his throat, which may explain why he froze. More likely is that Norton was a huge step up in class and Bobick just couldn't deal with the pressure he was under from Norton's assault, in an environment we just wasn't up to. It probably didn't help Bobick that the KKK reportedly sent Norton a one way plane ticket to Africa just before the fight.

Joe Frazier told Eddie Futch that Norton was too big a risk for Bobick but he ignored him

Ahhh no... Norton thought it was a good idea to fight Frazier at that time -- a good money fight between friends.. Frazier didn't think so.. He thought Bobick would be a better idea.. Whose idea was it for Marvis to fight Larry Holmes when he had 10 fights??? ... None other than Smokin's.

Money is money... If you're the manager you get your cut ... and no beating to go with it.

[Tony1244]

A similar opponent, Larry Middleton, thought Bobick would win. I saw Bobick-Middleton live and saw Norton-Middleton on TV. I thought Bobick had a chance at the time. If I had seen Bobick-Sanford then, I wouldn't have.

[Tony1244]

He wasn't ready for a fight like that... Norton was tremendously insulted that his buddies Joe Frazier and Eddie Futch would use him as a target who Bobick could cut his title contending teeth on... Bobick was 38-0 and ranked 4th... He was WAY overrated and Norton knew it.

Bobick was slow... powerless... defenseless... uncoordinated... silly... soft... fatuous... heedless... and he had 2 left feet... He was a very unlikely individual to show up in the world rankings.. He got crushed in similar fashion by John Tate... Kallie Knoteze... and George Chaplin.

Duane wasn't powerless, but the rest is pretty accurate.

[Flump]

Bobick says he got caught by a shot in his throat, which may explain why he froze. More likely is that Norton was a huge step up in class and Bobick just couldn't deal with the pressure he was under from Norton's assault, in an environment we just wasn't up to. It probably didn't help Bobick that the KKK reportedly sent Norton a one way plane ticket to Africa just before the fight.

Joe Frazier told Eddie Futch that Norton was too big a risk for Bobick but he ignored him

Ahhh no... Norton thought it was a good idea to fight Frazier at that time -- a good money fight between friends.. Frazier didn't think so.. He thought Bobick would be a better idea.. Whose idea was it for Marvis to fight Larry Holmes when he had 10 fights??? ... None other than Smokin's.

Money is money... If you're the manager you get your cut ... and no beating to go with it.

Frazier was retired by then. So a fight with Norton was even more of a non starter.

Joe Frazier is quoted in Ken Norton's autobiography as saying that Bobick was also represented by a lawyer and a financial manager who both thought Norton was over the hill. For reason best known to himself he decided to listen to them and not Frazier. From the same book Eddie Futch is quoted as saying "Norton was just about ready to be taken". Frazier has stated elsewhere that he told Futch that Norton was too big a risk.

So who do I believe here, a young internet fantasist unconvincingly masquerading as a venerable old sage or Joe Frazier?

[Tony1244]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but Bobick should have held out for an Ali fight.

Ali would have been easier than Norton in 77/78 and more money.

[Kalan]

Bobick says he got caught by a shot in his throat, which may explain why he froze. More likely is that Norton was a huge step up in class and Bobick just couldn't deal with the pressure he was under from Norton's assault, in an environment we just wasn't up to. It probably didn't help Bobick that the KKK reportedly sent Norton a one way plane ticket to Africa just before the fight.

Joe Frazier told Eddie Futch that Norton was too big a risk for Bobick but he ignored him

Ahhh no... Norton thought it was a good idea to fight Frazier at that time -- a good money fight between friends.. Frazier didn't think so.. He thought Bobick would be a better idea.. Whose idea was it for Marvis to fight Larry Holmes when he had 10 fights??? ... None other than Smokin's.

Money is money... If you're the manager you get your cut ... and no beating to go with it.

Frazier was retired by then. So a fight with Norton was even more of a non starter.

Joe Frazier is quoted in Ken Norton's autobiography as saying that Bobick was also represented by a lawyer and a financial manager who both thought Norton was over the hill. For reason best known to himself he decided to listen to them and not Frazier. From the same book Eddie Futch is quoted as saying "Norton was just about ready to be taken". Frazier has stated elsewhere that he told Futch that Norton was too big a risk.

So who do I believe here, a young internet fantasist unconvincingly masquerading as a venerable old sage or Joe Frazier?

I don't see myself as old – but that’s my generation we're talking about... People generally revise history in their favor in their autobiographical accounts... They tend to give themselves the best of any controversial situations and give their side of the story – to enlighten everybody as to what really happened... It's like a defendant and a plaintiff will have different versions of the same events, although they're both under oath.

Joe Frazier was Duane Bobick’s and Marvis Frazier’s manager. A boxer’s match-ups are the ultimate responsibility of the fighter himself. However, young pro fighters need to be given guidance and the benefit of experience and knowledge in navigating their career paths – and don’t need to be thrown to the wolves by their management. Boxing is rife with short horizon thinkers. A dollar in the bank is worth 10 blowing in the wind – so let’s snap it up. Those 2 fights weren't the ultimate bad moves in their careers -- but they set the stage for later mismatches.

[Caractacus]

Do you think that maybe Joe Frazier (as manager)may have (perhaps unconciously)
thrown Duane Bobick under the wheels at that time ?
and wanted his good friend Ken Norton to teach Bobick a lesson ?
If you read Frazier's autobiography the two (Frazier and Bobick)didn't seem to get along too well at some point.
Bobick usually sounds like he was dissed somewhat when he talks about it
(no one was in his dressing room at all from team Frazier when he was warming up to fight Norton)
Duane Bobick had been s a sparring partner for Joe Frazier back in1975 when Frazier was training to fight Ali
in Manilla.

[Kalan]

Do you think that maybe Joe Frazier (as manager)may have ... thrown Duane Bobick under the wheels at that time and wanted his good friend Ken Norton to teach Bobick a lesson? ... Bobick usually sounds like he was dissed somewhat when he talks about it (no one was in his dressing room at all from team Frazier when he was warming up to fight Norton)

Yeah, Duane talked about that.. Just before the biggest possible fight of his career and where was his fuk-ass team??? He had the fleeting thought that maybe they were all in Norton's dressing room making fun of him and giving Norton tips.

Not only black fighters dissed Bobick, but white fighters as well... Bugner had unkind things to say about Bobick. He thought he was as punching bag.. Scott LeDoux hated Bobick and had a lot to say about him.. He lost to Bobick twice.. Duane didn't like the bad mouthing and trained for the LeDoux rematch like he should have trained for Norton.. Kallie Knoteze sneered at him.. He figured Duane was a 1-round job and gave him the death stare. Chuck Wepner fought his ass off against Bobick and wasn't happy about losing to him.

Bobick seemed like a chump... People weren't impressed by his intellect, demeanor, or the way he carried himself... Like Reynaldo Snipes.

[Caractacus]

yeah, i remember reading something that like a day before the fight,Duane Bobick was reading a newspaper,
and in an article about the upcoming fight,it said that Joe Frazier was picking Norton to win !
BTW Joe Bugner could have had his chance against Bobick,because just after Bobick's win
over Randy Nuemann,Bobick's trainer was quoted as saying they wanted to fight Bugner next.
reportedly after Bobick's loss to Knoetzee,Frazier and team left South Africa immediately but Bobick stayed behind.
He then made a film there entitled BILLYBOY which ironically was what they use to call Joe Frazier back on Beafourt Island,SC.
I wonder if Bobick and Tex Cobb ever trained or sparred together at Frazier's gym in Philadelphia ?

[Kalan]

Cobb couldn't box well, but he wasn't impressed by much... He wouldn't have been impressed by Bobick.

Cobb was asked how much money he would need to fight Gerry Cooney. He said, "I'll fight him for 25 cents and a blow job."

[Flump]

Ahhh no... Norton thought it was a good idea to fight Frazier at that time -- a good money fight between friends.. Frazier didn't think so.. He thought Bobick would be a better idea.. Whose idea was it for Marvis to fight Larry Holmes when he had 10 fights??? ... None other than Smokin's.

Money is money... If you're the manager you get your cut ... and no beating to go with it.

Frazier was retired by then. So a fight with Norton was even more of a non starter.

Joe Frazier is quoted in Ken Norton's autobiography as saying that Bobick was also represented by a lawyer and a financial manager who both thought Norton was over the hill. For reason best known to himself he decided to listen to them and not Frazier. From the same book Eddie Futch is quoted as saying "Norton was just about ready to be taken". Frazier has stated elsewhere that he told Futch that Norton was too big a risk.

So who do I believe here, a young internet fantasist unconvincingly masquerading as a venerable old sage or Joe Frazier?

I don't see myself as old – but that’s my generation we're talking about... People generally revise history in their favor in their autobiographical accounts... They tend to give themselves the best of any controversial situations and give their side of the story – to enlighten everybody as to what really happened... It's like a defendant and a plaintiff will have different versions of the same events, although they're both under oath.

Joe Frazier was Duane Bobick’s and Marvis Frazier’s manager. A boxer’s match-ups are the ultimate responsibility of the fighter himself. However, young pro fighters need to be given guidance and the benefit of experience and knowledge in navigating their career paths – and don’t need to be thrown to the wolves by their management. Boxing is rife with short horizon thinkers. A dollar in the bank is worth 10 blowing in the wind – so let’s snap it up. Those 2 fights weren't the ultimate bad moves in their careers -- but they set the stage for later mismatches.

You're not old Kalan. You're young with, to be fair, a great capacity for cramming information. It's just a shame that you insist on this fantasy identity, when it's quite clear from your boxing 101 posts that you have been recently learning on the job, not somebody who was 'there'. But of course you have gone too far to backtrack now.

With regards to Bobick, I agree with Tony1244, he should have held out for an Ali fight if possible.

[Sidney Carton]

58 seconds is what happened. Including the ten count.

[Kalan]

You're not old Kalan. You're young with, to be fair, a great capacity for cramming information. It's just a shame that you insist on this fantasy identity, when it's quite clear from your boxing 101 posts that you have been recently learning on the job, not somebody who was 'there'. But of course you have gone too far to backtrack now.

With regards to Bobick, I agree with Tony1244, he should have held out for an Ali fight if possible.

I find it amusing that so many think I'm young. I'm young at heart. A lot of people I meet think I'm 50 and don't believe I'm in my 70's. Young women and even girls flirt with me -- smile really big at me and look directly at me. I have an amazing body I guess. I work out a couple hours a day to keep it that way and eat right. Sleeping isn't as important as most people think it is. 5 or 6 hours is fine for anybody.

The number one thing is nutrition and the number 2 thing is working out with weights, machines, plyometric style push-ups, lockout pull-ups and other barstarzz exercises -- and over the years changing and refining your workout routines for every day of the week. I keep discovering new devices like the Bosu Ball which is great for developing balancing routines. You can actually get more fit and strengthen your body in certain ways as you get older.

The thing is today we have the Internet. I wish we had it when I was young. We have youtube and other sites where you can find out all about nutrition, conditioning, and strength training at your fingertips. The world has changed in amazing ways and athletes are developing their bodies and doing things that were unheard of in my generation. That's why you see all the different routines and workouts AJ has developed over the years. He has only 20 professional fights but already has 5 Heavyweight Championship Fights. Who accomplished this in previous generations?

One problem is information overload. You need to be astute in choosing the best of the best and letting the other crap go -- which is hard.

With regards to Bobick and Ali??? ... Any top Heavyweight would have embarrassed him. He was a pawn. Marvis was a pawn. You have to develop your game and your skills. You can't work on your game with the kind of weak body Bobick had. You need an athlete's body so you change it.

[jas80s]

You're not old Kalan. You're young with, to be fair, a great capacity for cramming information. It's just a shame that you insist on this fantasy identity, when it's quite clear from your boxing 101 posts that you have been recently learning on the job, not somebody who was 'there'. But of course you have gone too far to backtrack now.

With regards to Bobick, I agree with Tony1244, he should have held out for an Ali fight if possible.

I find it amusing that so many think I'm young. I'm young at heart. A lot of people I meet think I'm 50 and don't believe I'm in my 70's. Young women and even girls flirt with me

Oh, come on, where is the story of how the 9th ranked Lingerie model in the world fell in love with you five minutes after meeting you when you randomly showed up at a shoot??

[littlepug]

Just watched this fight for the first time, in fact never actually watched anything of Bobick before, he looked completely out of his depth almost like he wasn't used to getting hit back, how he compiled a record of 38-0 I don't know

[Kalan]

But Bobick went to 38-0 by fighting very weak competition for a very long time. He fought guys like Wepner who were well within his comfort zone. He never had to develop a boxer's body, or any skills. or have any kind of game to beat world ranking Heavyweights.

Then he took a massive jump and fought a guy who might be the best Heavyweight in the world on a given night... Norton was disrespected greatly for his lack of a chin... for his uncoordinated and awkward swings... for his trembling countenance when he fought Foreman -- a guy who knew he was going to kill Norton... and for his phony personality and pretense. He tried too hard to be intelligent, entertaining, and funny. He thought he was beautiful. He put on airs and lot of people didn't like him. These are reasons many people thought Norton was easy to beat.

Norton had a good jab. He'd stop Ali's jab dead and nail him right in the face. He had a fair left hook and caught Ali with left hooks. Norton's right was loaded and not real sharp -- sometimes awkward. He nailed Ali was some of those. Ali was made for him. But judges were so mesmerized by Ali that sometimes they didn't see anything his opponent was doing. If Norton shut his mouth and didn't yell nonsense at Ali maybe he wouldn't have created so much ill will with the judges -- who might be Ali fans after all. You have to get past a judges possible mindset. Ali had millions of fans and Norton had 126 fans. But Norton won Ali fights that the judges didn't give him and it was his mouth that cost him those fights.

But say you're Norton. You've beaten world class Heavyweights -- but your buds match you with Duane Bobick... Man, you've got to be pissed off to beat Hell... Norton was 223-pounds of rock-hard, pent up fury... He unleashed all the frustration on Bobick that was building for his entire career.

[scorpio83]

58 seconds is what happened. Including the ten count.

True and Joe Frazier advised Bobick not to fight Norton, but Bobick signed to fight Norton against Frazier's wishes.

[Kalan]

Frazier didn't advise Bobick not to fight Norton... He also didn't advise Marvis not to fight Holmes... As manager he was getting a nice cut.

After Holmes stopped Marvis, reporters asked him about matching Marvis so tough -- Smokin' explained... "It wasn't me up there getting hit."

Hmmm...

Another time reporters asked Frazier about Muhammad Ali's physical condition... Frazier proudly said, "I did that to him" ... Joe could be cold.