BoxRec

Evander Holyfield boxed and beat Larry Holmes and George Foreman when they arguably past their primes. If a prime Holyfield had instead been facing Holmes of the early 80s and the version of Foreman that dominated Frazier and Norton, how much different would the matches have been?

I'd pick Holmes over holy not so sure on George I think evander would out last foreman and get a late stoppage.

Holmes by UD. Against Foreman? Either Big George by 4-5 rounds stoppage or Holyfield by late KO/TKO

Holyfield was hit by some pretty clean shots by Foreman when they fought in 1991.

A few of those punches visibly rattled him, but he quickly roared back and took it to Foreman.

At 42, Foreman was too slow to put together any effective combinations.

I wonder though if Holyfield, as tough as he was, would have been able to survive the early onslaught of a younger, quicker Foreman.

I pick prime Holyfield over prime Foreman, because Evander obviously was more technically advanced and was able to take a punch. While prime Holyfield vs prime Holmes is hard to tell.

- Technical for a roided clubfighter was all Mr. Field ever was.

You want technical, watch Michael Spinks pick apart an in shape Qawi, and then watch Mr. Field go life and death against a tubby out of shape 5'5" Qawi at crusier. George had Field hanging on for dear life by the end of their fight. Prime George would use Field like a basketball the same as he did Frazier. Field couldn't even handle Big Dummy.

I admit that must be some good zombie stuff you sweet'ums are on. Best watch out crossin' the street. There's some mighty big trucks rumbling by.

While I haven't watched Holmes/Holy in years, I distinctly recall being of the notion Larry was tricking Holyfield into small mistakes and walking him into his right hand. That notion has always underlined a belief that Larry would have out-pointed Holyfield in a good fight had they met in their respective primes.

paddy chavez wrote: ↑28 Dec 2017, 18:12 I'd pick Holmes over holy not so sure on George I think evander would out last foreman and get a late stoppage.

Agree with both outcomes.

I'm not sure if Holyfield would have survived the early rounds or not. Foreman had phenomenal power and was a good finisher.

golden oldie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2017, 15:49

SenorPipino wrote: ↑29 Dec 2017, 00:22 Holyfield was hit by some pretty clean shots by Foreman when they fought in 1991.

A few of those punches visibly rattled him, but he quickly roared back and took it to Foreman.

At 42, Foreman was too slow to put together any effective combinations.

I wonder though if Holyfield, as tough as he was, would have been able to survive the early onslaught of a younger, quicker Foreman.

I can see where you are coming from, but do you honestly see Holy charging in to get hit the way Joe frazier did?

No.

Holyfield would have started out trying some side to side movement and carefully boxing Foreman.

But Evander was a warrior and eventually he would engage Foreman in some toe to toe action. Especially if he found the young Foreman easy to hit.

As I said, the 40+ Foreman hit Holyfield with some pretty hard shots. I assume that the 25 year old version would have gotten his share in too. Maybe in combinations.

Whenever Holyfield was tagged hard in his career (witness Bowe 1 and Cooper fights) he came roaring back.

Would this be his undoing against the powerful younger Foreman. Alas we will never know.

Btw, did somebody here refer to Holyfield as merely a 'roided clubfighter?

Sheesh. Hard to imagine that these people live amongst us.

The active, well trained, and ripped 217-pound Foreman who destroyed Frazier – versus the well trained 217-pound Holyfield who beat Bowe in their rematch would be an interesting match-up... In fact, that version of the young Foreman would have been interesting to watch versus anybody of that era -- including Ali and Young.

After Foreman destroyed Frazier he took a well-deserved break, soaking up the adulation, eating, drinking, dating, sleeping in and somewhat abusing his body. It was hard to get back into training but he went at it ferociously for Roman. He got much fatter before the Norton camp. But Kenny was made to order for him. He was then 40-0 with 37 KOs - a 93% KO ratio, something no other Heavyweight Champion had ever achieved.. It seemed like nobody could touch him. But when you have the talent to smash people out so quickly your boxing skills suffer. When he faced Ali, George had 8 straight fights over 3 years where he never got 2 full rounds in.

George never trained as hard or went back to the fight schedule of the pre-Frazier years. Foreman didn’t increase his boxing IQ or his technical skills a massive amount between Ali and Young. He had all the time in the world -- he just didn’t see himself as a clever boxer... It’s a mindset... You have to enjoy outsmarting people as much as smashing them.

There’s a well-worn saying “Too soon old – too late smart” ... Foreman made getting smart too late pay off. The Young fight haunted him, but he finally figured it out and kicked fate in the teeth. He also learned you don’t get 1 shot at the top ... you get just as many shots as you can inveigle or finagle.

So that’s the more interesting prime match-up… Holmes-Holyfield goes to Holmes.

golden oldie wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 19:50
I don't see the big stupid Foreman of the 70's landing many of any of his telegraphed round house punches against a class fighter like Holy to be honest. The come backing Foreman shortened his punches considerably, and perfected a certain technique to his game.

I believe there are a few here who label Evander as a roided clubfighter, or something very similar. Hilarious when one of them at least claims to be some kind of boxing " historian / writer " with a vast collection of film, mags, articles, and by extension some kind of expertise beyond the rest of our collective capabilities.

- Big George is one of the most intelligent fighters in history, period, end of, whereas on this forum, you are defined by your slogs through your slime as the resident slug at every turn.

The preroid Field went life and death with tubby, feather fisted Qawi and ended up in the hospital for a few days. No skilled boxer has that result. After moving into the heavy division, his roided heavy record is 28-10-2, the very definition of a club fighter. That's Leon Spinks territory, http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/262, save for his chin being better than poor Leon. His heavy title record is 10-7-2, not exactly dominating HOF stuff but he passes the slug slime test of today for those predisposed to a slug's slime. He was an exciting fighter precisely because of the lack of boxing skills. He led with his face and loved a good slugfest, making him perfect for his Big Dummy trilogy. Had he the talent and skills, he would've gone straight into the heavy division where all the money is like Ali, George, and Frazier did, but he didn't because he couldn't hack it until he took his vitamins.

http://www.BS.com/hall-famer-t ... deal--7753

Holyfield had been a pro for less than 2 years when he beat Qawi. Are you seriously ripping him for that performance?

I do think Holyfield's defense was mediocre and that Foreman would nail him and quite possibly stop him early. So picking Foreman is fair enough. But to rip for the Qawi fight is just silly.

Beating a veteran tough guy like Qawi with only 11 fights ( against questionable opponents) and less than 2 years as a pro, is something that should be applauded, not ridiculed.

With just 17 months between that fight and the rematch, Holyfield blossomed and dominated Qawi in just 4 rounds.

His greatness was on full display.

golden oldie wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 17:43 Go to 5.10 of the clip below, and you will have a good idea of what 70's Foreman was ACTUALLY like, not the revised version of the 21st century Foreman fans.

I could well be wrong but it might well have been the same interview in which Ali got out of the chair pretended to have one foot nailed to the floor, went round ins circles throwing punches in slow motion asking " were people seriously thinking I was so bad I could lose to that?"

Terrific stuff.

Vintage Ali.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 14:18

golden oldie wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 19:50
I don't see the big stupid Foreman of the 70's landing many of any of his telegraphed round house punches against a class fighter like Holy to be honest. The come backing Foreman shortened his punches considerably, and perfected a certain technique to his game.

I believe there are a few here who label Evander as a roided clubfighter, or something very similar. Hilarious when one of them at least claims to be some kind of boxing " historian / writer " with a vast collection of film, mags, articles, and by extension some kind of expertise beyond the rest of our collective capabilities.

- Big George is one of the most intelligent fighters in history, period, end of, whereas on this forum, you are defined by your slogs through your slime as the resident slug at every turn.

The preroid Field went life and death with tubby, feather fisted Qawi and ended up in the hospital for a few days. No skilled boxer has that result. After moving into the heavy division, his roided heavy record is 28-10-2, the very definition of a club fighter. That's Leon Spinks territory, http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/262, save for his chin being better than poor Leon. His heavy title record is 10-7-2, not exactly dominating HOF stuff but he passes the slug slime test of today for those predisposed to a slug's slime. He was an exciting fighter precisely because of the lack of boxing skills. He led with his face and loved a good slugfest, making him perfect for his Big Dummy trilogy. Had he the talent and skills, he would've gone straight into the heavy division where all the money is like Ali, George, and Frazier did, but he didn't because he couldn't hack it until he took his vitamins.

http://www.BS.com/hall-famer-t ... deal--7753

RandomPoster wrote: ↑28 Dec 2017, 18:09 Evander Holyfield boxed and beat Larry Holmes and George Foreman when they arguably past their primes. If a prime Holyfield had instead been facing Holmes of the early 80s and the version of Foreman that dominated Frazier and Norton, how much different would the matches have been?

Arguably? Holyfield fans........

golden oldie wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 19:50

SenorPipino wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 18:41

golden oldie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2017, 15:49

I can see where you are coming from, but do you honestly see Holy charging in to get hit the way Joe frazier did?

No.

Holyfield would have started out trying some side to side movement and carefully boxing Foreman.

But Evander was a warrior and eventually he would engage Foreman in some toe to toe action. Especially if he found the young Foreman easy to hit.

As I said, the 40+ Foreman hit Holyfield with some pretty hard shots. I assume that the 25 year old version would have gotten his share in too. Maybe in combinations.

Whenever Holyfield was tagged hard in his career (witness Bowe 1 and Cooper fights) he came roaring back.

Would this be his undoing against the powerful younger Foreman. Alas we will never know.

Btw, did somebody here refer to Holyfield as merely a 'roided clubfighter?

Sheesh. Hard to imagine that these people live amongst us.

I don't see the big stupid Foreman of the 70's landing many of any of his telegraphed round house punches against a class fighter like Holy to be honest. The come backing Foreman shortened his punches considerably, and perfected a certain technique to his game.

I believe there are a few here who label Evander as a roided clubfighter, or something very similar. Hilarious when one of them at least claims to be some kind of boxing " historian / writer " with a vast collection of film, mags, articles, and by extension some kind of expertise beyond the rest of our collective capabilities.

If thats meant to imply old George fought him better than a younger version could've, you're dreaming. His fans claim the same thing over his win over Holmes. More hittable, less speed and power........Prime Foreman destroys him.

golden oldie wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:24

MrGuy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:11

If thats meant to imply old George fought him better than a younger version could've, you're dreaming. His fans claim the same thing over his win over Holmes. More hittable, less speed and power........Prime Foreman destroys him.

The only dreamers on this forum are the soppy Foreman fans whose revisionist imaginations are running riot, in their determination to convince themselves the pre Young Foreman was anything other than a crude slugger.

Holyfield, though by no means a slickster was not some come straight forward idiot, tailor made for Foreman to crudely shove back and tee up for his telegraphed shots. That is why both Ali and Young made him look a gormless fool.

His head shots were crude. However the guy had a great jab, and was great at cutting off the ring. Was also very effective with shots to the body. He wasn't some neanderthal. Holyfield wasn't even in the same class as Young and Ali as a pure boxer. Struggled against ancient Foreman and Holmes. Almost got ko'd by Cooper. Beat by average Moorer. Beat twice by average Bowe. This was "prime" Holyfield. Ignoring that is being a revisionist.

I agree with most of this except for Bowe being average. (unless you just mean his defense.) And Holyfield was not in his prime for the 3rd Bowe fight. Otherwsie that is pretty close to being on the money.
Foreman managed to get to Frazier and Norton and blew them out. Holyfield was not as good defensively as they were.

I say average because Holyfield was the only guy he ever looked good against. Dont think he was great or even overly good.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 14:25 Holyfield had been a pro for less than 2 years when he beat Qawi. Are you seriously ripping him for that performance?

I do think Holyfield's defense was mediocre and that Foreman would nail him and quite possibly stop him early. So picking Foreman is fair enough. But to rip for the Qawi fight is just silly.

- Field was over a half foot taller in height and reach, 10 years younger with extensive ama experience that Qawi lacked, and at a natural weight that the stumpy Qawi wasn't a natural at..

Field had the best trainers and TV exposure the suits could buy for him vs a sneering felon, yet somehow almost died after that fight. He took so much punishment, not the sign of a good boxer much less an excellent boxer like Michael Spinks who easily handled a much better Qawi. I don't have to rip Field, he damn near R.I.P.ed himself that 1st fight. Qawi went 15-9 after that fight he figured he was robbed in because Qawi was pretty much done once he moved out of the LH division.

Field had some popularity that peaked when he dismantled a mentally ill Tyson who was in middle of the best recorded spiral of self destruction in boxing history, but unlike Tyson who was certified looney with the psychotrophic sedatives to match, Field has no excuse for his own PED self destruction. 28-10-2 ain't ever gonna beat Foreman. He's lucky the suits saw that fight his way as it would have made boxing look bad had they scored the fight for Foreman. Moorer put a much bigger beating on Foreman than Field who folded badly down the stretch as the media touted, self proclaimed best trained fighter in boxing history. Ran out of gas in plenty of his fights also. Not the real deal, but an artificially blown up heavy who spent his latter years under suspension when he was declared medically unfit to fight he was so shot.

He was an exciting, face first Vinny Madalone type fighter the next grade up, but then he started leading with his noggin instead of his face because he could no longer fight and never learned how to box save maybe as an amateur.

golden oldie wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 07:00

MrGuy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 16:22

golden oldie wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:24

The only dreamers on this forum are the soppy Foreman fans whose revisionist imaginations are running riot, in their determination to convince themselves the pre Young Foreman was anything other than a crude slugger.

Holyfield, though by no means a slickster was not some come straight forward idiot, tailor made for Foreman to crudely shove back and tee up for his telegraphed shots. That is why both Ali and Young made him look a gormless fool.

His head shots were crude. However the guy had a great jab, and was great at cutting off the ring. Was also very effective with shots to the body. He wasn't some neanderthal. Holyfield wasn't even in the same class as Young and Ali as a pure boxer. Struggled against ancient Foreman and Holmes. Almost got ko'd by Cooper. Beat by average Moorer. Beat twice by average Bowe. This was "prime" Holyfield. Ignoring that is being a revisionist.

What utter tosh.

You must be on some weird kind of drugs if you think Holyfield struggled against either Foreman or Holmes. As for Cooper yeah he had a tough patch in the fight, and needed his heart and determination to get through it. Remind us of THE RESULT. I never take idiots seriously who try to claim obvious victories ( and TKO 7 is pretty emphatic ) are in fact defeats.

Yeah he lost to Moorer, but avenged it good style knocking the guy over 5 times in the process. So that leaves us with Bowe who you claim is average, and tbh I tend to agree, but he was without a doubt the far bigger guy. Now we know that Holy dealt with the cleverer fatter Foreman quite easily despite your moronic claim he struggled with him.

We are talking here about the crude 220 lb version who was even KD'd by Jimmy Young who in fairness couldn't knock over a bag of feathers. Ali didn't even need his " pure " boxing ability to mug the big stupid dope, so that is a non starter. Holyfield would not need to be super skilled to beat that version of Foreman, who even looked like a parody of Frankenstein's monster when he " cut the ring off "

Foreman's reign as champion in the 70's was an embarrassment, and the world breathed a huge sigh of relief when Ali ended it.

He lost 4-5 rounds to ancient Holmes. Probably 4 to Foreman. Yes they made him look bad. Moorer was just plain average. Doesn't matter he avenged the loss. The same with Bowe. Had all the talent, but looked bad to average against everyone except Holyfield. Whats that tell you? His entire legend is based off beating washed up Tyson and average Bowe. Bowe in reality when focused, was no better than Douglas.

golden oldie wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 23:33

MrGuy wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 14:11

golden oldie wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 07:00

What utter tosh.

You must be on some weird kind of drugs if you think Holyfield struggled against either Foreman or Holmes. As for Cooper yeah he had a tough patch in the fight, and needed his heart and determination to get through it. Remind us of THE RESULT. I never take idiots seriously who try to claim obvious victories ( and TKO 7 is pretty emphatic ) are in fact defeats.

Yeah he lost to Moorer, but avenged it good style knocking the guy over 5 times in the process. So that leaves us with Bowe who you claim is average, and tbh I tend to agree, but he was without a doubt the far bigger guy. Now we know that Holy dealt with the cleverer fatter Foreman quite easily despite your moronic claim he struggled with him.

We are talking here about the crude 220 lb version who was even KD'd by Jimmy Young who in fairness couldn't knock over a bag of feathers. Ali didn't even need his " pure " boxing ability to mug the big stupid dope, so that is a non starter. Holyfield would not need to be super skilled to beat that version of Foreman, who even looked like a parody of Frankenstein's monster when he " cut the ring off "

Foreman's reign as champion in the 70's was an embarrassment, and the world breathed a huge sigh of relief when Ali ended it.

He lost 4-5 rounds to ancient Holmes. Probably 4 to Foreman. Yes they made him look bad. Moorer was just plain average. Doesn't matter he avenged the loss. The same with Bowe. Had all the talent, but looked bad to average against everyone except Holyfield. Whats that tell you? His entire legend is based off beating washed up Tyson and average Bowe. Bowe in reality ehen focused, was no better than Douglas.

Lets try to make it so easy even YOU might be able to grasp things.

I have less than no interest in your pathetic opinion.

1. Did Holyfield beat Holmes by a combined 14 points on the 3 judges cards, Yes or No?

2. Did Holyfield beat Foreman by a combined 15 points on the 3 judges cards, Yes or No?

As stated I have NO interest in your squirming opinions, like the retarded " almost " fukking idiocy, just simple answers will do.

Some might say your pathetic fanboyism of Tyson " almost " makes sense, but in reality it doesn't.

Nice you added all three judges cards together. He still probably lost 4 to Foreman, and 4-5 to Holmes. Slice it any which way you want. That's embarassing.

golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 00:13 You see, you ( much like Kolon ) are the sort of idiot that should you tell someone it was a lovely day, they would need to look out the window to check for themselves.

He won. He also lost 4-5 rounds to each fighter embarassing himself. Why fixate on the nonsense of total score? Because it makes it look like he won by far more. Priceless......