Who was the most skilled heavyweight ever?

[Boxing Writer]

Just pure skillset, don't take into account another qualities like size, speed, heart, chin, power etc... For example, Ruddock was bigger and hit way harder than Tony Tubbs, but Tubbs was more skilled fighter. Tua was much stronger and hit much, much harder than Chris Byrd, but Byrd had much better technique...

Of course, different size means different style, so lets divide them in the categories. Who was the most skilled among? (I'm not ranking them, some of the guys have no business being even mentioned here - they are just for comparison),

Smaller fighters (up to 6 feet tall) - Tyson, Frazier, Marciano, Patterson, Tua, Quarry, Charles, Walcott, Byrd, Toney, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Tunney

Average-sized heavyweights (6'1'' - 6'4'') - Louis, Ali, Holmes, Norton, Holyfield, Foreman, Liston, Schmeling, Baer, Witherspoon, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Jack Johnson

Big guys (6'5'' and taller) - Lewis, Bowe, Vitali, Wlad, Tucker, Terrell, Joshua, Wilder, Tyson Fury, Willard

[Boxing Writer]

In my opinion, the most skilled HW ever was Larry Holmes. He had amazing jab, excellent footwork, great variety of punches and accuracy. And very good defense also. Larry was also among the smartest fighters ever. Just imagine if he had the size and power of Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko...

[HomicideHenry]

IF... and it's a big if... Tyson Fury mounts a successful comeback and defeats Anthony Joshua, etc after 2.5 years being gone... I'd argue he is the best skilled of the 6'5" and taller category.

Best all-around heavyweight, imho, was Larry Holmes. So I agree with Boxing Writer. I think he and Holyfield are the only two heavyweights of equal size who could have beaten Muhammad Ali in a series of fights regardless of what version of Ali you wish to choose.

Up to 6' in height? Tunney; the man could have been the 175 pound King many times over in his era, and I can't think of any heavyweight in his time who could have touched him. Of those listed, Walcott and Charles would have given him the most problems: but considering how they failed against Marciano and Tunney danced around Dempsey twice easily who some say is superior to the Rock, I'd give the edge to Gene.

[elmersalsa]

In my opinion, the most skilled HW ever was Larry Holmes. He had amazing jab, excellent footwork, great variety of punches and accuracy. And very good defense also. Larry was also among the smartest fighters ever. Just imagine if he had the size and power of Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko...

[elmersalsa]

The great Evander Holyfield was the most complete heavyweight of all time. The great Larry Holmes is a close second.

[Ambling Alp II]

For the smaller guys, I would go with Tunney. He had great footwork, defense, was very disciplined.

For Average -Ali if you count "Uncoventional skills" He had skills that you just can't teach. Conventional, I would go with Louis, followed by Holmes. Holyfield's defense was not good enough.

For big - I guess Lewis. His jab was way overrated, (he often just pawed with it.) Bowe had the better all around arsenal (by far the best big inside fighter) but his defense was not as good as Lewis.

[Boxing Writer]

By the way, can we count an ability to hold as a part of defensive skills? Because it was proven to be extremely effective against some fighters. Tyson, for example, was far less effective against the guys who knew how to clinch properly. Wlad, Lewis and Ali were very good at holding. Especially Wlad and Lewis who put their huge weight of their opponents, not only tying them in the inside, but also exhausting them. I'd say Lewis was as good at clinches as Wlad, but he didn't hold as often because he had much better inside game and therefore didn't need to use clinches against certain opponents.

[Ned Merrill]

IF... and it's a big if... Tyson Fury mounts a successful comeback and defeats Anthony Joshua, etc after 2.5 years being gone... I'd argue he is the best skilled of the 6'5" and taller category.

Best all-around heavyweight, imho, was Larry Holmes. So I agree with Boxing Writer. I think he and Holyfield are the only two heavyweights of equal size who could have beaten Muhammad Ali in a series of fights regardless of what version of Ali you wish to choose.

Up to 6' in height? Tunney; the man could have been the 175 pound King many times over in his era, and I can't think of any heavyweight in his time who could have touched him. Of those listed, Walcott and Charles would have given him the most problems: but considering how they failed against Marciano and Tunney danced around Dempsey twice easily who some say is superior to the Rock, I'd give the edge to Gene.

Fury has truly tipped the scales (literally and figuratively) against himself. If he did manage to return to form and out-box Joshua, I tend to agree with you.

Holmes is and has always been vastly underrated, even when he fucked-up and had to unleash the dogs to survive and pull-out the win. I'd hear parrots, both on air and around me, comparing him poorly to Ali and later Tyson, overlooking the championship mettle and skills on display.

I remember in 1991 people telling me Holyfield was doomed, that Tyson would eventually get in with him and that would be it. Why?, I'd ask. "Because he lacks Tyson's explosive speed and power". Holyfield's movement and ability to put his punches together were lost upon those clowns right up until the end part of round 6 a half decade or more later.

[Nile4000]

Tubbs, Ali, Holmes, and Page.

[Kalan]

For the smaller guys, I would go with Tunney. He had great footwork, defense, was very disciplined.

For Average -Ali if you count "Uncoventional skills" He had skills that you just can't teach. Conventional, I would go with Louis, followed by Holmes. Holyfield's defense was not good enough.

For big - I guess Lewis. His jab was way overrated, (he often just pawed with it.) Bowe had the better all around arsenal (by far the best big inside fighter) but his defense was not as good as Lewis

Tunney is a good choice for small Heavyweight... He's my all-around most skilled Heavyweight... He only lost one of 80-something fights and had terrific infighting and body punching skills as well as a tireless jab he could keep going for 20 rounds... You definitely didn't see him do a lot clinching or holding because he had no need to.

"Unconventional skills" are flaws... You coach a boxer to get rid of them.

Leaning or pulling back from punches and chronic holding are in this category... It explains why Ali took more than his share of hard punches to the head... If the referee orders you to "let go of him" and sometimes a referee will pull your hands free, there's a good chance your opponent will hit you when he does... If you don't let go when ordered there's a chance of being down another point. You could have a friendly "house" referee who lets you grab at will, and breaks you every time, but not every boxer is so lucky. Grabbing and holding is not allowed under Queensberry rules.

The referee could call time and read you the riot act if you don't let go on command -- or if you engage in wrestling, head grabbing, forearm shoving, or other infractions you could lose points.

Naseem Hamed would sway his body around to avoid punches and throw from weird angles... What Barrera did was a lot of feinting and waiting for NH to return to an upright stance where he would tag him with ease... Hamed's "technique" allowed Barrera more control of the ring and destroyed his game plan and maybe his psyche -- since his career seemed to be over at that point.. Maybe it occurred to him that it was too late to learn a conventional boxing style.

Holmes was the best mid sized fighter, but he liked to engage in exchanges when he was younger and that can get you hit.. When he was old and fat you didn't see him going to war.. Same with Foreman. When he was an old man he took his time. He didn't feel in a big rush to end things and kept his focus on track.

Bowe had size, strength, and was a good brawler... However he took a lot of punishment using that style and your prime is won't last long.. How many fights did Joe Frazier have? Lewis had great size which he used very well with small fighters. When he fought guys his height and size he got tagged up.. Joshua would riddle Lewis with punches from every angle and knock him out.... AJ is definitely the best tall boxer to date.

[DrDuke]

I'd say, Lennox Lewis was. He was technically superb boxer, he was also a smart boxer and could use his abilities and size in a proper way. He had some dedication problems, what had caused some troubles, but he had handled them.

The other names from the very top are Holyfield, Tyson, W. Klitschko, Holmes, Ali, Frazier, Joe Louis.

[dalcumly]

I think the most skilful has to be someone who always fought within range of his opponent but could avoid punches and counter at the same time.
My nomination is a bit off the wall, but Eddie Machen for me. He was stunned in the first round by johannson, no disgrace, and stopped by Frazier towards the end of his career, but faced Folley, Liston Patterson, Williams, Terrell and coped well with them all, many of whom were much bigger.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think that Machen is an interesting choice. He was a very skilled fighter. I would disagree that he coped well with Patterson and Terrell. He was beaten very convincingly against Patterson. He looked bad against Terrell and couldn't come up with a way to overcome Terrell's awkward style.

Still, an an interesting name to mention all the same.

[Tony1244]

I think Boxing Writer makes a great choice with Larry Holmes.


Not sure what Tua, Quarry, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Tucker, Terrell, or Willard are doing on this list.

[littlepug]

I think Boxing Writer makes a great choice with Larry Holmes.


Not sure what Tua, Quarry, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Tucker, Terrell, or Willard are doing on this list.

Tell you what, i thought Douglas looked the absolute bees knees skills wise when beating Tyson, yes i know Tyson wasnt at his best and all that but his skills had me mesmerised in that fight.

[Tony1244]

I think Boxing Writer makes a great choice with Larry Holmes.


Not sure what Tua, Quarry, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Tucker, Terrell, or Willard are doing on this list.

Tell you what, i thought Douglas looked the absolute bees knees skills wise when beating Tyson, yes i know Tyson wasnt at his best and all that but his skills had me mesmerised in that fight.

Douglas looked great that night. But it was only one night, not a career. That name is arguable. But Sanders? Terrell?

[Seamus]

That's to everyone who didn't say Jack Johnson or Sonny Liston, your initelligence is appreciated.

Ali when he concentrated would be a candidate. Tunney has a good argument. Joe Louis had poor footwork and his defense wasn't very good for a guy rated so highly.

[littlepug]

I think Boxing Writer makes a great choice with Larry Holmes.


Not sure what Tua, Quarry, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Tucker, Terrell, or Willard are doing on this list.

Tell you what, i thought Douglas looked the absolute bees knees skills wise when beating Tyson, yes i know Tyson wasnt at his best and all that but his skills had me mesmerised in that fight.

Douglas looked great that night. But it was only one night, not a career. That name is arguable. But Sanders? Terrell?

Yeah none of em belong on the list and that includes Douglas, he was a case of what might of been, he picked a good night to turn it on though !

[Boxing Writer]

I think Boxing Writer makes a great choice with Larry Holmes.


Not sure what Tua, Quarry, Mercer, Moorer, Douglas, Povetkin, Haye, Ibragimov, Brewster, Sanders, Rahman, McCall, Page, Tubbs, Dokes, Parker, Tucker, Terrell, or Willard are doing on this list.

They are here for comparison. You can be a champion or top contender, but don't have the best skills.

[dr_devious]

Ken Norton must have had serious skills to push Ali and Holmes all the way

[Nile4000]

Norton took advantage of Ali's flaws and gave him hell. 3 years earlier, they had sparred, and Norton gave him some guys then too.

[Boxing Writer]

Ken Norton must have had serious skills to push Ali and Holmes all the way

[BitPlayer]

Funny how James J Corbett never seems to get brought up in stuff like this.

[Sidney Carton]

Funny how James J Corbett never seems to get brought up in stuff like this.

Not funny.

Sad.

[Kalan]

Ken Norton must have had serious skills to push Ali and Holmes all the way

Norton was lacking a great many skills...

He did well with light hitting boxers because he came in head first and bullied them around with his strength like Frazier did... But he was exposed by punchers like Foreman, Garcia, Shavers, and Cooney.... Foreman hit Norton with 5 rights in a row the 1st time he knocked him down... That's a lot of right hands in a row -- but guys with a cross-armed defense tend to think the next punch coming after they get hit with a right, is a left...

It's not that Foreman was super skilled, but he was a terrific puncher... This is exactly what good punchers do -- if you're leading with your head and you're right in their wheelhouse they're throwing to the opening... They know in any exchange of punches they'll come out on top 95% of the time... Unless it's a Foreman-Lyle affair -- then it's more of a toss up..

Punchers love fighters, brawlers, and head knockers -- anybody who comes straight at them.... They hate boxers... Brawlers love "runners." ... But it's okay to be aggressive like Joshua is if you can also box when you need to.... Lets say you get tagged like Norton... Everybody thinks they can box their way out of trouble, but some top rated fighters are so flawed it's laughable... They've never been exposed by a puncher before... Many boxers tie you up on the inside and pray that the referee will physically break them -- instead of ordering them to stop holding ... "Let go John. . . . FUK!! LET HIM GO JOHN!!" Aggressive guys love referees like that... Punchers love you come in and trade... Don't hook with a hooker as they say... Norton was a sitting duck.