BoxRec

SenorPipino wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:08 Actually Ali frequently said that he was sorry if his pre-fight banter upset Frazier on a personal level.

He always said that he was merely trying to sell their fights and wasn't being purposely cruel.

At times Frazier maintained that he was over it and accepted Ali's apologies.

But on other occasions Frazier would discuss Ali and gave every indication that he was still angry with him and simply could not move on.

Frazier may have been insecure and Ali's comments about his looks and being an "Uncle Tom" upset him deeply.

And it's probably didn't help that Ali won 2 of their 3 encounters and is considered the superior fighter by most.

Insecurity and some jealousy were probably at the heart of Frazier's inability to truly forgive Ali until the day he died.

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man.

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24 It was severe relentless bullying that Frazier endured from Ali. To the point that his family was threatened by the public. He had been “friends” with Ali during Ali’s ban and had loaned him money and helped him back to boxing. Following that Ali turned on him so it would be understandable to be mistrustful of Ali’s apologyies and Ali in general. Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man. Another sour point for Frazier is that he was willing to complete the final round of their famous third fight, perhaps to his death whereas It was later revealed Ali had told his corner he wanted the fight to end. If Frazier corner had not thrown in the towel who knows what would have occurred.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑31 Jan 2018, 00:14

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24 It was severe relentless bullying that Frazier endured from Ali. To the point that his family was threatened by the public. He had been “friends” with Ali during Ali’s ban and had loaned him money and helped him back to boxing. Following that Ali turned on him so it would be understandable to be mistrustful of Ali’s apologyies and Ali in general. Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man. Another sour point for Frazier is that he was willing to complete the final round of their famous third fight, perhaps to his death whereas It was later revealed Ali had told his corner he wanted the fight to end. If Frazier corner had not thrown in the towel who knows what would have occurred.

Your post is the first time I have ever heard that Ali told his corner that he wanted to quit before the 15th.

Never ever have I seen that.

Ali described the Thrilla in Manila as "the closest thing to death" but never revealed that he would have quit.

I don't think he would have. Ali didn't attain greatness in life by being a quitter.

He was exhausted after throwing a non stop barrage of punches at a reeling Frazier in the 13th and 14th rounds.

But he would have climbed off his stool and battled the final 3 minutes if Futch hadn't ended the bout.

The only time I've ever heard of Ali asking out of a fight was when he was blinded by that foreign substance on Liston's gloves in their 1964 fight.

Ali (or Clay) screamed at Dundee that he was seeing 3 Liston's and told him to cut his gloves off.

But the veteran trainer calmed him down and ordered him back out, telling Ali to "aim at the guy in the middle."

I don't know if Ali was serious about quitting that night, but you have to remember that he was still an immature 22 year old. He wasn't accustomed to dealing with much adversity and momentarily panicked.

But 11 years later Ali was a mature, seasoned veteran who had pretty much dealt with everything possible in the ring.

Ali would have sucked it up and continued. As Dundee later said "My guy ain't human. He has a spare gas tank."

Quitting was no longer a word in Ali's vocabulary.

Lackeos wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 22:46

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man.

I would like to point out, additionally, that the term "Uncle Tom" as a pejorative is inaccurate as to the content of Uncle Tom's Cabin, and it is the tool of a propaganda effort by white racists. The Uncle Tom character in the novel Uncle Tom's Cabin was a martyr and in every way a respectable and inspirational figure for black people. In the novel, he was tortured to death while refusing to squeal on other slaves that had ran away from the plantation. Decades later, whites in the South staged their own "Uncle Tom plays" in which they perverted the character into being impotent, frail, cowardly, ingratiating to his masters, and a betrayer to his race. It would basically be like if someone made a slanderous film about Obama or MLK in which the subject was portrayed to be a rapist and an inarticulate idiot. The goal was to rob black people of essentially the black Jesus that they had to look up to. Considering that less than 1% of people know the history of the "Uncle Tom" term, it seems that the propaganda effort was almost completely successful.

Grant wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 18:35 I idolised the Great Man but on relection and after reading a lot he was exceptionally cruel to Joe Frazier and never quite found the time to reconcile with him, sad really

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 15:32 I think Ali's problem, was that he felt it was fair to use almost anything to promote the fight, so he set himself up as the protector of the black man, and cast frazier in opposition as the white man's puppet.

It was at best foolish, and at worst cruel and cynical.

Ultimately both men paid the price, Frazier burned with rage for the rest of his life at the sleights suffered from Ali, and Ali almost certainly paid a terrible price in terms of his long term health, from the cumulative effects of all 3 fights, where he took more punishment than the rest of his career put together.

Ali was far from a saint, but I get the impression from reading many different account about him, that at heart, he was a sensitive and thoughtful man, and certainly later in his life, regretted many of his actions as a younger man, he stated himself that developing parkinson's taught him humility in life, and I think the older Ali would probably have winced at some of the things he said as a young man.

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24 It was severe relentless bullying that Frazier endured from Ali. To the point that his family was threatened by the public. He had been “friends” with Ali during Ali’s ban and had loaned him money and helped him back to boxing. Following that Ali turned on him so it would be understandable to be mistrustful of Ali’s apologyies and Ali in general. Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man. Another sour point for Frazier is that he was willing to complete the final round of their famous third fight, perhaps to his death whereas It was later revealed Ali had told his corner he wanted the fight to end. If Frazier corner had not thrown in the towel who knows what would have occurred.

Kalan wrote: ↑22 Feb 2018, 17:04

lazboy wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 21:24 It was severe relentless bullying that Frazier endured from Ali. To the point that his family was threatened by the public. He had been “friends” with Ali during Ali’s ban and had loaned him money and helped him back to boxing. Following that Ali turned on him so it would be understandable to be mistrustful of Ali’s apologyies and Ali in general. Being called an Uncle Tom is just about the worst thing a black man can call another black man. Another sour point for Frazier is that he was willing to complete the final round of their famous third fight, perhaps to his death whereas It was later revealed Ali had told his corner he wanted the fight to end. If Frazier corner had not thrown in the towel who knows what would have occurred.

Ali was jealous of Frazier... Ali called Sonny Liston a "big monkey" and called Frazier a "gorilla" which hurt their feelings. Ali frequently referred to black people by the "N word" and excused his language by calling it "ghetto talk" -- kind of like Donald Trump excusing his foul language in reference to women as "locker room talk" .... For their 3rd fight, Ali bought a stuffed monkey doll and had it swinging on a string.. Ali delighted his fans by punching the monkey doll and calling it "Joe Frazier." .... Frazier wasn't amused and never forgave Ali.. Until proven wrong by records, Ali referred to himself as an "Asiatic Negro" who he thought were superior in looks and intelligence to "African Negros"

Ali had many funny ideas....but many people hold strange ideas about race, religion, nationality, politics, and what not... This doesn't make them bad people - just very uninformed and poorly educated folks... Ali was great on the Viet Nam War. That's an issue where he showed tremendous insight, character, and courage.

Frank Bruno had suffered KO losses to James Smith, Mike Tyson, Tim Witherspoon, and Lennox Lewis when Ali wrote him this letter.. Maybe Ali saw Bruno's fight with the inept Joe Bugner - who Bruno easily beat up and stopped - but Ali had a harder time with Bugner.. Maybe cuz the heavyweights where so much bigger and stronger in the 1990's that Ali thought he was lucky to come up in the 1960's -- an era of very small Heavyweights who Ali generally towered over.

Ali had Frazier beaten in Manila and he knew it... Ali created a drama that wasn't there cuz he was all about drama.. His face was barely marked... Ali drove a very fat and exhausted Frazier all over the ring in the 14th and would have killed him in the 15th... I knew Frazier's corner was going to stop it... So did Ali... I believed Ali's corner was going to stop his fight with Larry Holmes after the 7th or 8th, but I was dead wrong... They were trying to make everybody throw up.

Grant wrote: ↑30 Jan 2018, 18:35 I idolised the Great Man but on relection and after reading a lot he was exceptionally cruel to Joe Frazier and never quite found the time to reconcile with him, sad really