BoxRec

Just watched the fight.

The ref made a right mess when Douglas hit the mat. Footage shows the timekeeper clearly counting with his hands. By the time the ref gets to Douglas the official count is "6".
The ref never looked at the timekeeper but just started his count at "3". Meaning by the time the ref got to "9" and Douglas got up, the official count was "13". The ref did not look at the timekeeper once. He only looked over to Tyson in the neutral corner.

nobleart1978 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 11:05 Just watched the fight.

The ref made a right mess when Douglas hit the mat. Footage shows the timekeeper clearly counting with his hands. By the time the ref gets to Douglas the official count is "6".
The ref never looked at the timekeeper but just started his count at "3". Meaning by the time the ref got to "9" and Douglas got up, the official count was "13". The ref did not look at the timekeeper once. He only looked over to Tyson in the neutral corner.

Identical counts.

nobleart1978 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 11:05 Just watched the fight.

The ref made a right mess when Douglas hit the mat. Footage shows the timekeeper clearly counting with his hands. By the time the ref gets to Douglas the official count is "6".
The ref never looked at the timekeeper but just started his count at "3". Meaning by the time the ref got to "9" and Douglas got up, the official count was "13". The ref did not look at the timekeeper once. He only looked over to Tyson in the neutral corner.

So ? No count will ever be bang on correct what with everything going, all i care about is that the ref can count to ten (a ref is only human so dont expect his count of ten to be ten exact seconds) and the boxer either gets up before or after he reaches ten, simple as.

I think we went over this before.

If the referee screws up, then it's on him, not the fighter.

The fighter only pays attention to the referee's count. Not the timekeeper.

Douglas properly responded to the ref.

And always remember that 10 seconds and a 10 count are not necessarily the same.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 11:33 I think we went over this before.

If the referee screws up, then it's on him, not the fighter.

The fighter only pays attention to the referee's count. Not the timekeeper.

Douglas properly responded to the ref.

And always remember that 10 seconds and a 10 count are not necessarily the same.

It's not like the fighter is correctly counting with the ref going, "I think the ref is counting fast or slow"

I don't think Octavio Meyran was a bad referee - it was he who had to sort out the Duran 'no-mas' scenario and dealt with it pretty well given the extraordinary circumstance that was the eighth round of that chaotic event - but he did get it badly wrong with Tyson-Douglas in not taking his cue from the timekeeper. Whether Douglas had enough of his wits about him to have beaten a correct count nobody will ever know for sure but the magnitude of Buster's accomplishment that night in Tokyo should not be devalued by an error that was not his.

Douglas said he could have risen earlier. He was simply listening to the referee's count.

Maybe Douglas was lying. Maybe he was telling the truth. We're not Douglas. We don't know.

Don King raged that Douglas could never have gotten up within 10 seconds and wanted the result overturned.

But that was of course self serving on King's part. Again, he's not Douglas. He doesn't really know.

Meyran didn't mess up as badly as referee Walcott during Ali-Liston 2.

Actually Walcott was correct in not starting the count on Sonny since Ali was running around the ring, never going to a neutral corner until about 10 seconds had elapsed.

Walcott's error was unthinkably listening to Nat Fleischer, who yelled out from ringside that the fight was over since Liston had been down 10 seconds before getting up.

Of course Fleischer was only the editor of Ring Magazine and had absolutely no authority.

To this day, modern recounting of the fight almost always erroneously mentions that Walcott halted the bout only when the timekeeper informed him that Liston missed the 10 count.

Fleischer was no timekeeper.

The counts may have been identical. But Tyson scored his KD first.. Thus, that count should have gone 10.. Tyson wins.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 13:26 The counts may have been identical. But Tyson scored his KD first.. Thus, that count should have gone 10.. Tyson wins.

Douglas got up before ten, Tyson didnt, therefore Douglas wins

littlepug wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 13:38

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 13:26 The counts may have been identical. But Tyson scored his KD first.. Thus, that count should have gone 10.. Tyson wins.

Douglas got up before ten, Tyson didnt, therefore Douglas wins

Makes sense to me. And that's the way history records it.

Shoulda, woulda and coulda. But it didn't. Douglas got up before HE received the 10 count from the referee.

That's all that matters.

That sums it up well.

nobleart1978 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 11:05 Just watched the fight.

The ref made a right mess when Douglas hit the mat. Footage shows the timekeeper clearly counting with his hands. By the time the ref gets to Douglas the official count is "6".
The ref never looked at the timekeeper but just started his count at "3". Meaning by the time the ref got to "9" and Douglas got up, the official count was "13". The ref did not look at the timekeeper once. He only looked over to Tyson in the neutral corner.

I wonder if Don King hadn't made an outrage about this after the fight if other people ever would've?

Douglas heard the referee's count. Is clearly "there" and listening to the referee's count early. It's not like he was hurt and barely beat the count on wobbly legs, he wisely took to the count of 9 to recover as much as he could from the shot, and then proceeded to continue the ass kicking that he'd already been giving Mike.

Bottom line: Even IF the referee had been counting at the timekeeper's pace and not his own Douglas would've beaten the count. So it's much ado about nothing. It was Buster's night.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 13:18 Douglas said he could have risen earlier. He was simply listening to the referee's count.

You covered it later in your post, but when I read the first sentence I thought to myself, "Good thing Nat Fleischer wasn't there."

you have to be incredibly stupid not to grasp the fact that fighters react to the ref, and therefore that fighters will time there rise based on where the ref is in the count

why would douglas go by anything other than the refs official count? get your brains together man!

jamamb wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 19:53 you have to be incredibly stupid not to grasp the fact that fighters react to the ref, and therefore that fighters will time there rise based on where the ref is in the count

why would douglas go by anything other than the refs official count? get your brains together man!

Yep when you're in the ring the referees count is the only one you're aware of and the only one that matters.

If Tyson would've trained and stayed focused like he was supposed to, ya'll wouldn't have to make these stupid threads with excuses saying he should've won. Yeah he could've, should've, and would've won but he didn't.

nobleart1978 wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 11:05 Just watched the fight.

The ref made a right mess when Douglas hit the mat. Footage shows the timekeeper clearly counting with his hands. By the time the ref gets to Douglas the official count is "6".
The ref never looked at the timekeeper but just started his count at "3". Meaning by the time the ref got to "9" and Douglas got up, the official count was "13". The ref did not look at the timekeeper once. He only looked over to Tyson in the neutral corner.

Have you only just noticed this?

This nonsense was dragged up over a quarter of a century ago & quickly debunked when rational people rightly noticed that Douglas beat the referee's count, which is all that he was required to do.

The referee should ALWAYS take the count from the timekeeper.

Meyran did not do this.

Octavio Meyran was a professional boxing referee while Jersey Joe Walcott was a celebrity one.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 10:58 Octavio Meyran was a professional boxing referee while Jersey Joe Walcott was a celebrity one.

- Chuck Johnston

True, but Walcott was given the duties of a professional referee and was expected to function at the same competent level as one.

Ali-Liston wasn't an exhibition. Why bring someone in for the important job of championship bout referee, if he wasn't capable of functioning as one?

SenorPipino wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 11:36

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 10:58 Octavio Meyran was a professional boxing referee while Jersey Joe Walcott was a celebrity one.

- Chuck Johnston

True, but Walcott was given the duties of a professional referee and was expected to function at the same competent level as one.

Ali-Liston wasn't an exhibition. Why bring someone in for the important job of championship bout referee, if he wasn't capable of functioning as one?

Exactly. If there was a competent referee in the second bout between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston, a controversy would be less likely.

- Chuck Johnston

SenorPipino wrote: ↑16 Feb 2018, 13:18 Douglas said he could have risen earlier. He was simply listening to the referee's count.

Maybe Douglas was lying. Maybe he was telling the truth. We're not Douglas. We don't know.

It looked like he could. He was staggered, but he wasn't unconscious. The count was obviously long, but it just looked like Douglas was listening to it.