BoxRec

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 12:40**

Sometimes I wonder if Ali-Liston II should be declared a 'no contest'. Not because I question the knockdown punch, but because the officiating was not at all fair to Liston. The poor guy was caught cold, waited until Ali was in a neutral corner before getting up, didn't get a count, and resumed fighting after getting up from the non-count. Without a count, Liston could've thought the knockdown was being ruled a slip. He did his job. He got up and resumed, only to have the fight stopped by referee Walcott and non-official Nat Fleischer. He had to accept the result and live with it for the rest of his life.

Seems like the fair thing to have done at the time would have been for the commission to rule, "Grievous mistakes were made in the officiating of the fight; in the interest of fairness to the participants, the Muhammad Ali - Sonny Liston fight shall be declared no-contest."

Of course, if the result of this fight is retroactively changed, what can of worms does it open up? Do we retroactively change the result of, say, Ali-Young because of a disputed decision? Or Tyson-Golota because Tyson used a non- performance enhancing drug and got high in the days leading up to the fight (oh, wait...)?

Thoughts?

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 13:11**

sweetsci wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 12:40 Sometimes I wonder if Ali-Liston II should be declared a 'no contest'. Not because I question the knockdown punch, but because the officiating was not at all fair to Liston. The poor guy was caught cold, waited until Ali was in a neutral corner before getting up, didn't get a count, and resumed fighting after getting up from the non-count. Without a count, Liston could've thought the knockdown was being ruled a slip. He did his job. He got up and resumed, only to have the fight stopped by referee Walcott and non-official Nat Fleischer. He had to accept the result and live with it for the rest of his life.

Seems like the fair thing to have done at the time would have been for the commission to rule, "Grievous mistakes were made in the officiating of the fight; in the interest of fairness to the participants, the Muhammad Ali - Sonny Liston fight shall be declared no-contest."

Of course, if the result of this fight is retroactively changed, what can of worms does it open up? Do we retroactively change the result of, say, Ali-Young because of a disputed decision? Or Tyson-Golota because Tyson used a non- performance enhancing drug and got high in the days leading up to the fight (oh, wait...)?

Thoughts?

Yes. Liston did do his job. He took the dive like he was supposed to.

If you think he was there that night to give a sincere effort you're kidding yourself. The dive couldn't have been more obvious. One of the most obvious in the sports history I'd say.

BoxBuzz always talks about "Yeah but the punch could've conceivably" blah blah blah...Liston clearly could've gotten up, and purposely rolled back over onto his back to make sure he lost. He took a dive. Period.

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 13:12**

The only question in my mind about that fight is WHY Liston took a dive.

Some say the Mob paid him off

Some say he was afraid that there was going to be an assassination attempt on either he or Ali's life, and he wanted to get the hell out of the ring before the bullets started flying.

Whatever the reason may have been. It was a dive. As sure as the sky is blue, and the grass is green.

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 17:18**

gilgamesh wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 13:11
sweetsci wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 12:40 Sometimes I wonder if Ali-Liston II should be declared a 'no contest'. Not because I question the knockdown punch, but because the officiating was not at all fair to Liston. The poor guy was caught cold, waited until Ali was in a neutral corner before getting up, didn't get a count, and resumed fighting after getting up from the non-count. Without a count, Liston could've thought the knockdown was being ruled a slip. He did his job. He got up and resumed, only to have the fight stopped by referee Walcott and non-official Nat Fleischer. He had to accept the result and live with it for the rest of his life.

Seems like the fair thing to have done at the time would have been for the commission to rule, "Grievous mistakes were made in the officiating of the fight; in the interest of fairness to the participants, the Muhammad Ali - Sonny Liston fight shall be declared no-contest."

Of course, if the result of this fight is retroactively changed, what can of worms does it open up? Do we retroactively change the result of, say, Ali-Young because of a disputed decision? Or Tyson-Golota because Tyson used a non- performance enhancing drug and got high in the days leading up to the fight (oh, wait...)?

Thoughts?
This. Liston would have found a way to lose whatever. Though Ali would have won legitimately anyway, he just had Liston's number.

Yes. Liston did do his job. He took the dive like he was supposed to.

If you think he was there that night to give a sincere effort you're kidding yourself. The dive couldn't have been more obvious. One of the most obvious in the sports history I'd say.

BoxBuzz always talks about "Yeah but the punch could've conceivably" blah blah blah...Liston clearly could've gotten up, and purposely rolled back over onto his back to make sure he lost. He took a dive. Period.

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 17:22**

gilgamesh wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 13:11
sweetsci wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 12:40 Sometimes I wonder if Ali-Liston II should be declared a 'no contest'. Not because I question the knockdown punch, but because the officiating was not at all fair to Liston. The poor guy was caught cold, waited until Ali was in a neutral corner before getting up, didn't get a count, and resumed fighting after getting up from the non-count. Without a count, Liston could've thought the knockdown was being ruled a slip. He did his job. He got up and resumed, only to have the fight stopped by referee Walcott and non-official Nat Fleischer. He had to accept the result and live with it for the rest of his life.

Seems like the fair thing to have done at the time would have been for the commission to rule, "Grievous mistakes were made in the officiating of the fight; in the interest of fairness to the participants, the Muhammad Ali - Sonny Liston fight shall be declared no-contest."

Of course, if the result of this fight is retroactively changed, what can of worms does it open up? Do we retroactively change the result of, say, Ali-Young because of a disputed decision? Or Tyson-Golota because Tyson used a non- performance enhancing drug and got high in the days leading up to the fight (oh, wait...)?

Thoughts?
Yes. Liston did do his job. He took the dive like he was supposed to.

If you think he was there that night to give a sincere effort you're kidding yourself. The dive couldn't have been more obvious. One of the most obvious in the sports history I'd say.

BoxBuzz always talks about "Yeah but the punch could've conceivably" blah blah blah...Liston clearly could've gotten up, and purposely rolled back over onto his back to make sure he lost. He took a dive. Period.

Most people that hold Gilg's opinion.....and there are many......have never taken a forensic look at that. I've never argued that the officiating was anything but lousy. I have said that the KD was absolutely genuine....as would anyone who spent 15 minutes reviewing those few seconds. Could Liston have continued? Of course he was rattled not KO'd....and he attempted to continue....and his adrenaline was serving him pretty well in the aftermath of the embarrassing KD.

The outcome was never going to be different than what it was. Clay/Ali had the keys. Sonny was surprised, and clearly deflated and not likely to truly rally after that moment......and probably grateful it ended the way it did, since it did give him the opportunity to blame someone other than himself.

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 18:41**

Did Liston or his people ever, either officially or unofficially, protest the result? I don't recall ever reading that he had.

Would he have just gone down again later in the round had the fight continued?

Posted: **17 Feb 2018, 19:55**

Ali landed a clean shot right on the point of the chin. Liston was hurt, he tried to get up. Bad officiating and the fight was stopped. There was no fix. You gents have been hoodwinked. The myth is more talked about than what really happened.

It's like the myths surrounding Johnson-Ketchel.

1. They took it easy on each other. Reality, it was a tough fight from the opening bell.
2. Johnson brushed Ketchel's teeth off his glove. Reality, he hit Stanley with the other hand, so they weren't embedded in the hand that he brushed.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 00:36**

A dive?

I don't think so. Why did Liston go down? To get out of the fight, if you go along with the fix theory.

A fighter goes down and then waits to be counted out. He took a dive. He purposely lost the fight.

So tell me: if Liston wanted out, why did he get the hell up?? If I'm taking a dive, I'm not getting up to resume fighting.

If you plan to keep fighting, why go down in the first place?

It doesn't make sense.

Simply put, Liston leaned forward and got nailed with a short, quick right hand. He went down, rolled around, got up and started to fight back.

If Walcott had ignored the wails of Nat Fleischer, as he should have, the fight would have continued and who knows how long it would have lasted.

A fix? After more than 50 years, I'll need a lot more convincing.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 07:07**

golden oldie wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 21:47 what the fuk is going one here? I am supposed to have lost already. "

That's all in your head.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 15:06**

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:48
keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:07
golden oldie wrote: ↑17 Feb 2018, 21:47 what the fuk is going one here? I am supposed to have lost already. "
That's all in your head.
As I said film doesn't lie. It was such an obvious fix, Ray Charles could have seen it.

The film shows a man being punched on the chin and going down. It does not show a fix, absolutely not. That is just a theory.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 18:21**

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 15:06
golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:48
keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:07

That's all in your head.
As I said film doesn't lie. It was such an obvious fix, Ray Charles could have seen it.
The film shows a man being punched on the chin and going down. It does not show a fix, absolutely not. That is just a theory.

I think we all know that people will see what they want to believe.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 18:30**

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 15:06
golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:48
keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:07

That's all in your head.
As I said film doesn't lie. It was such an obvious fix, Ray Charles could have seen it.
The film shows a man being punched on the chin and going down. It does not show a fix, absolutely not. That is just a theory.

The punch legitimately lands and may have legitimately knocked him down. Yes indeed. He clearly gets up onto his knees, and flops back over onto his back in a way that is so blatantly intentional it's as obvious as the nose on your face.

Whether Liston was knocked down legitimately or not, he clearly COULD'VE gotten up and intentionally chose not to.

Posted: **18 Feb 2018, 20:33**

But he DID get up and resumed fighting.

Sonny didn't know that Walcott was going to take direction from a ringside boxing writer.

Again--- why get up and continue to fight if you're intent on taking a dive? Just stay down.

As for Liston flopping around, I recall Berbick doing a lot of those same ups and downs from one punch when he fought Tyson.

And I don't hear anyone suggesting that Berbick took the plunge.

Posted: **19 Feb 2018, 16:43**

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 23:54 As I said, and will continue to repeat, opinions are worthless, whereas film DOESN'T lie. Liston goes down, but when he gets up again, he is NOT confused, or badly shaken. Rather he is watching what Joe Walcott is doing, or who is listening too, then he makes NO attempt to throw punches at Ali. He goes into a shell and WAITS for Walcott to finally catch on, and get in sync with the bigger picture, which was the blatant fix.

Do you also believe that members of the Nation of Islam kidnapped Liston's wife Geraldine and his adopted son?

Supposedly they held the two hostage in a hotel room to ensure that Sonny threw the fight.

This is an age-old canard believed by most who maintain that Liston took a dive in Lewiston.

Neither the late Geraldine or the son, Bill, ever recalled a kidnapping, although Liston's son figures to have been too young to remember. If it actually occurred, that is.

Posted: **19 Feb 2018, 18:36**

No one can tell if a punch hurt except the guy who got hit by it.

The reason I think it was a dive is his eyes looked lucid as could be, and the half get up and roll back down again was the worst acting job I've ever seen.

Posted: **20 Feb 2018, 07:16**

The punch definitely landed as you can see the head movement at the point of impact.

How hurt he was and whether he really fancied the job after that only he would have known. Having said that he got up when he could have stayed down. I'd hazard a guess based on the footage that he was going to get stopped though, he was shipping some punches after the restart.

Refereeing is a complete shambles. Imagine stopping the fight on the say so of a ringside reporter rather than the official timekeeper.

Posted: **20 Feb 2018, 13:57**

Yeah,I seen the fight on film dozens of times.
Liston's head vibrated like a tuning fork the moment it hits him
( same type of punch Ali would use to knock out Zora Foley later on).

Posted: **22 Feb 2018, 12:55**

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 18:30
keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 15:06
golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Feb 2018, 07:48

As I said film doesn't lie. It was such an obvious fix, Ray Charles could have seen it.
The film shows a man being punched on the chin and going down. It does not show a fix, absolutely not. That is just a theory.
The punch legitimately lands and may have legitimately knocked him down. Yes indeed. He clearly gets up onto his knees, and flops back over onto his back in a way that is so blatantly intentional it's as obvious as the nose on your face.

Whether Liston was knocked down legitimately or not, he clearly COULD'VE gotten up and intentionally chose not to.

Liston was knocked down by a short right hand... He CHOSE TO GET UP AND DID!!!! HE CHOSE TO RESUME FIGHTING AND DID...

IF Liston wanted to take a dive, there's TWO (2) OPTIONS... Option 1... Stay down and get counted out by the referee.... Option 2.... Get up, but don't resume fighting... Wave your hand, turn your back, and say "NO MAS!!!" .... That method of quitting was good enough for Roberto Duran so should be good enough for Sonny Liston.

Liston GOT UP... He flopped down because "Clay was running at me from behind. You have to put one hand on the canvas to get up and I couldn't defend myself... The count hadn't started because Clay didn't go to a neutral corner so I thought I was good... I got up when Clay was in front of me and I could see him." Liston did not HAVE to get up that soon cuz the count SHOULD HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED BECAUSE OF ALI'S REFUSAL TO GO TO A NEUTRAL CORNER ... al a Dempsey-Tunney 2.

Ali missed every follow up punch when the fight resumed... Liston easily ducked and slipped them all so it shows he wasn't hurt badly by the knockdown... He wouldn't have resumed fighting if he intended to quit... It makes NO SENSE to get up and resume a fight that Walcott, Liston and Ali ALL BELIEVED WAS STILL ON -- if you're trying to pull a tank job.

Posted: **22 Feb 2018, 13:20**

The Jury's in on this one Kalan, and the verdict is Dive.

Posted: **22 Feb 2018, 13:49**

You're blind...

Many jury's verdicts have been overturned -- by the FACTS.... Most people with 2 eyes and a brain agree that the officials messed up royally -- and that Liston was given a raw deal by both the officials and the boxing commission...

This particular verdict is going to be reviewed endlessly until the right thing is done.... and it's retroactively declared an NC.

Posted: **22 Feb 2018, 19:40**

Do you think Oscar Bonavena could have gotten up off of the canvas in time to clear his head and go the distance
if Muhammad Ali was not allowed to stand over him ?

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