Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 08:04
by caldo2025
While 99% of the world is calling the GGG/Canelo rematch a fight to determine who is the top 160 pounder in the world, I'm not so sure anymore. Not sure at all. A GGG fan first and foremost, I was pretty blown away by Billy Joe's performance against Lemieux. I know...I know...Lemieux is flawed boxer and wins against him shouldn't be blown out of proportion. But it was how BJS did it with incredible footwork, speed and more than anything else, ring intelligence. The thing that i was most impressed with though was that BJS's incredible tempo didn't change for 12 rounds. Most slick fighters slow in the championship rounds allowing the slower, more powerful, Mexican Style boxers to get their chances on the ropes and in the corner late. Not in this one. I've never seen a boxer keep up that kind of pace for 12 rounds and it's that kind of boxer that can and will defeat GGG.
I think that if they had a 160 pound tournament right now without Oscar and GBP's influence on the scorecards, I think that it would probably end up being GGG vs. BJS in the final and my money would go on BJS. I don't think that GGG would catch up to him and I think that the speed and movement would actually make GGG look really bad honestly. Can't believe that i'm saying this.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 08:26
by Counter-puncher
caldo nuthugging a filthy brit, I've heard it all now...
i take your point brother. GGG struggled quite a lot with Canelo's movement from the waist. with BJS its more foot movement than movement from the waist but if anything he's even more difficult to pin down because of that- i don't think GGG would have him up against the ropes for long periods like he did Canelo.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 08:41
by East End
I did post to another forum about three years ago that Saunders was the one active middleweight who appeared to have the style and ability to provide GGG with a stern test somewhere down the line and I think that day has very much arrived. It would be a fascinating contest and I would find it really hard to pick a winner with any great confidence.
Right now, of course, we also have Canelo, and Jermall Charlo in the mix at 160 and Jacobs has improved with every fight since beating the big C. Billy Joe versus any of those three would also be tough to call.
We can only hope that some of those fights can be made sooner rather than later
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 09:03
by Thomastearns
Its a very strong possibility if BJS can once again re-channel Muhammad Ali against Golovkin the same way he did against Lemieux.
Of course it remains to be seen if he could cope with the pressure and faster pace against GGG in the same way. GGG is not Lemieux.
As they say, styles make fights. Against the right opposition its easy to believe that Amir Khan might be the best WW since SRR. I'm sure that Mayweather also saw this years ago.
Tactics do matter, you have your strengths and weaknesses, so does your opponent. The more astute coaches can see these clearly, but convincing their fighters is often far easier said than done.
Despite differing opinions on the result Groves/Eubank fight, it's generally accepted that George Groves fought the perfect tactical fight within his powers against Chris Eubank Jr.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 10:36
by boxing_rocks
Saunders barely got by Lee and inexperienced Eubank Jr. He looked great against the flat footed Lemieux, but it doesn't mean that he would look good against Golovkin, Jacobs or Charlo.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 10:56
by Mexi-Box
Golovkin doesn't struggle with movement of the feet. He cuts off the ring too well for that. It was Canelo throwing combinations and standing his ground where he had success. Golovkin was consistently the better ring general, though. BJS gets KO'd unless Golovkin gets old overnight.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 11:06
by siablo14
caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 08:04
While 99% of the world is calling the GGG/Canelo rematch a fight to determine who is the top 160 pounder in the world, I'm not so sure anymore. Not sure at all. A GGG fan first and foremost, I was pretty blown away by Billy Joe's performance against Lemieux. I know...I know...Lemieux is flawed boxer and wins against him shouldn't be blown out of proportion. But it was how BJS did it with incredible footwork, speed and more than anything else, ring intelligence. The thing that i was most impressed with though was that BJS's incredible tempo didn't change for 12 rounds. Most slick fighters slow in the championship rounds allowing the slower, more powerful, Mexican Style boxers to get their chances on the ropes and in the corner late. Not in this one. I've never seen a boxer keep up that kind of pace for 12 rounds and it's that kind of boxer that can and will defeat GGG.
I think that if they had a 160 pound tournament right now without Oscar and GBP's influence on the scorecards, I think that it would probably end up being GGG vs. BJS in the final and my money would go on BJS. I don't think that GGG would catch up to him and I think that the speed and movement would actually make GGG look really bad honestly. Can't believe that i'm saying this.
Was Saunders being drug tested for that bout?
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 11:37
by SenorPipino
Well you said it -- "a win against (Lemieux) shouldn't he blown out of proportion.
Saunders looked excellent against the powerful but one dimensional Canadian.
But no one was raving about him in his previous 3 fights against Lee, Akakov and Monroe.
It's best to take a fighters whole career into consideration when judging his worth.
Saunders has always been inconsistent despite remaining unbeaten.
He could stink it up again next time out.
No, Saunders is not the best middleweight on the planet.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 11:52
by IRLangmaid25
He has the potential to do it, and he has built up the championship experience having won the Commonwealth, British and European titles. So the championship experience and temperment is there. But he looked flat against Willie Monroe Jnr who is very defensive minded fighter, and dismantled David LeMieux who got stopped by Gennady Golovkin. So it is going to be interesting how Saunders deals with Martin Murray who in my eyes could be a banana skin for BJS.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:00
by BitPlayer
Probably not, but maybe, I'd like to see him get the shot.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:03
by jamamb
even ggg looked ultra slick vs lemieux
tell me another fighter where ggg looked anywhere near as defensively sound and skilled a boxer. that was the sharpest his jab ever looked too.
bjs is very good dont get me wrong and ive always thought ggg is overrated and hes getting up there, but funny how guys give there career best boxing performances against lemieux....
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:06
by ewenhay
IRLangmaid25 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 11:52
He has the potential to do it, and he has built up the championship experience having won the Commonwealth, British and European titles. So the championship experience and temperment is there. But he looked flat against Willie Monroe Jnr who is very defensive minded fighter, and dismantled David LeMieux who got stopped by Gennady Golovkin. So it is going to be interesting how Saunders deals with Martin Murray who in my eyes could be a banana skin for BJS.
Murray is well past his best now. Groves handled him easily and I think Saunders will too
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:09
by Enlightened-One
I remember quite clearly being aggressively derided by the forum for discussing Billy Joe Saunders' talent, coupled with my sincere belief that he would dominate Lemieux... to the point I was even accused of trolling.
And now look where we are?
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:10
by jamamb
ggg, bjs, rubio, alcine....all career best performances vs lemieux, with ggg, bjs, and alcine giving by far there best 'boxing' displays. just keep that in mind
look at how ggg played with lemieux and got hit maybe even less then saunders, but then looked very limited and got tagged many times vs jacobs for example and only drew with canelo.
but bjs does for sure have tools to trouble the top guys, but those guys are a totally different level from what hes seen. canelo, ggg, jacobs, charlo, etc.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:49
by Thomastearns
Saunders is a better boxer than Canelo but does he have the power to stop GGG trying to walk through him as he did with Brook? Since the ill fated Brook fight everyone's trying to outbox GGG. Saunders can actually do it.
GGG had to box more cautiously against Jacobs and Canelo because of their obvious power but he might go into ultra aggressive mode against Saunders. Can Saunders handle it, is he that good?
If he beats GGG (!), can he also beat Jacobs?
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 14:55
by Counter-puncher
jamamb wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 14:03
even ggg looked ultra slick vs lemieux
tell me another fighter where ggg looked anywhere near as defensively sound and skilled a boxer. that was the sharpest his jab ever looked too.
bjs is very good dont get me wrong and ive always thought ggg is overrated and hes getting up there, but funny how guys give there career best boxing performances against lemieux....
All fair points, especially how fvcking easy it is to jab Lemieux in the face. Over and over and over.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 15:00
by Enlightened-One
Thomastearns wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 14:49
Saunders is a better boxer than Canelo but does he have the power to stop GGG trying to walk through him as he did with Brook? Since the ill fated Brook fight everyone's trying to outbox GGG. Saunders can actually do it.
GGG had to box more cautiously against Jacobs and Canelo because of their obvious power but he might go into ultra aggressive mode against Saunders. Can Saunders handle it, is he that good?
If he beats GGG (!), can he also beat Jacobs?
Lemieux was generally regarded as a "massive" 160lb-er but looked pretty small against Saunders.
While I still currently favour GGG to defeat Saunders, he won't be able to steamroll Billy Joe... and if he tries to do so, without utilising his boxing skills, he'll inevitably lose ... and lose badly!
Saunders hasn't faced anyone with GGG's power and Golovkin hasn't ever shared the ring against an opponent as pugilistically skilled as Saunders, so it'll be an interesting bout.
A 2018 version of Gennady beats the current version of Billy Joe, but with the Brit getting better in leaps and bounds at the Ingle stable, the 2019 veteran version of Golovkin may possibly lose against Saunders.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 15:21
by gilgamesh
Could be, but he's definitely still got it to prove.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 15:43
by Loki
The only thing that beats GGG in the BJS fight is old Father Time. BJS doesn’t have the power to stop GGG marching through him and GGG cuts the ring down better than anyone BJS has faced.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
IRLangmaid25 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 11:52
He has the potential to do it, and he has built up the championship experience having won the Commonwealth, British and European titles. So the championship experience and temperment is there. But he looked flat against Willie Monroe Jnr who is very defensive minded fighter, and dismantled David LeMieux who got stopped by Gennady Golovkin. So it is going to be interesting how Saunders deals with Martin Murray who in my eyes could be a banana skin for BJS.
Murray is well past his best now. Groves handled him easily and I think Saunders will too
I want to think that ewenhay but there is always going to be that voice in the back of my head thinks could be a banana skin for Billy Joe Saunders. Yes Martin Murray is 35 years old and could be seen as either going over or 'past his best' as you described having been in with
Sergio Martinez
Gennady Golvokin
and Felix Sturm in his World title shots, plus George Groves at Super-Middleweight, but he has only come short against world champions or world level operators. But Murray still has the fire and desire to become a world champion and he knows that fighting BJS in what he feels as his last chance to get a world title could make it a very very tricky night for BJS, which may end up in a upset.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 16:47
by greg
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Thomastearns wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 14:49
Saunders is a better boxer than Canelo but does he have the power to stop GGG trying to walk through him as he did with Brook? Since the ill fated Brook fight everyone's trying to outbox GGG. Saunders can actually do it.
GGG had to box more cautiously against Jacobs and Canelo because of their obvious power but he might go into ultra aggressive mode against Saunders. Can Saunders handle it, is he that good?
If he beats GGG (!), can he also beat Jacobs?
Lemieux was generally regarded as a "massive" 160lb-er but looked pretty small against Saunders.
While I still currently favour GGG to defeat Saunders, he won't be able to steamroll Billy Joe... and if he tries to do so, without utilising his boxing skills, he'll inevitably lose ... and lose badly!
Saunders hasn't faced anyone with GGG's power and Golovkin hasn't ever shared the ring against an opponent as pugilistically skilled as Saunders, so it'll be an interesting bout.
A 2018 version of Gennady beats the current version of Billy Joe, but with the Brit getting better in leaps and bounds at the Ingle stable, the 2019 veteran version of Golovkin may possibly lose against Saunders.
I'm not as confident of the 2018 GGG as you EO.
I think the 2016 GGG beats the 2018 BJS for sure.
And we have to remember BJS can be so patchy, it seems fool hardy to pin opinions of him based mostly on his last fight.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 16:55
by Noxy
Yes, BJS looked great against Lemieux but then again BJS is the wrong style for Lemieux. I wouldn’t put him above GGG just yet
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 18:02
by Mexi-Box
Let's not forget that GGG also looked great, if not better, against Lemieux. BJS struggled with Eubank Jr. That's the reason why Eubank Jr. had such a big name for a while. It's because he had a close contest with BJS.
Re: Could Billy Joe Saunders actually be the best Middleweight in the world?
Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 18:56
by lazboy
Bjs may have movement for 12 rounds but he doesn’t have the punch volume to keep ggg off him. Golovkin will eventually catch up to him and/or be the ring general. Golovkins jab may also interfere with bjs long range punches. Think it would be a very frustrating night for Golovkin and his fans though. Tough fight for ggg in terms of stamina, pacing and speed.
