The complete closed-circuit broadcast
This is apparently the 'relayed" satellite version for the UK that was shown in the early morning hours on the BBC..
It is crystal clear to anyone with an open mind, that the skillset between these two fighters is rather wide...
and with the exception of the first half of the anomolus fifth round one fighter is clearly in charge....regardless of how close you may wish to score it......one fighter is setting the pace and style of the fight. And miraculously by the end of the odd fifth round, Ali had found a way, even with the handicap he was dealing with...to basically clown his opponent while he waited for the "fog" to lift.
If you don't want to say "dominating" then you are a shy soul. But one is clearly in charge...and the other........
.....is not.
How in the world was the second fight going to be any different?
Liston was simply not up to dealing with Clay/Ali during the time of those fights. Granted....neither were in their prime at this time....Liston's was past, and Ali's was still ahead into the future. However, Prime vs prime would have ended even worse for Liston.
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018, 18:22
It is crystal clear to anyone with an open mind, that the skillset between these two fighters is rather wide ..... If you don't want to say "dominating" then you are a shy soul ...... How in the world was the second fight going to be any different? ..... Prime vs prime would have ended even worse for Liston.
Let me remind you AGAIN of a few facts which you choose to ignore...
1..... It takes a tightly closed mind to say Clay was much more skilled than Liston.... Liston "dominated" prime Patterson, Folley, and Williams faster and easier than Ali dealt with old and washed up versions of Patterson, Folley, and Williams... Liston destroyed them when they were top contenders---or World Champion in the case of Patterson---in part by employing exceptional body punching and infighting skills that Ali clearly lacked.
2..... The fight was DEAD EVEN on the scorecards when Liston was forced to quit due to a badly torn left shoulder and left biceps -- a fact that 8 doctors testified to when the Boxing Commission tried to find a SINGLE DOCTOR who would tell them Liston was fit to continue fighting.... The severe injuries were caused by prolonged idleness and age -- since Liston only fought 3 badly shortened rounds in the previous 3 years he badly over-trained.... Clearly Sonny would have done better than dead even if he were active and uninjured...You repeatedly excuse an aging Ali for being embarrassed by 197-pound neophyte, Leon Spinks, who was 6-0-1... You also excuse an aging Ali for getting trounced by Larry Holmes like a total incompetent -- but you give NO space to an aging Sonny Liston??? Why?
3.... How could the rematch have been different??? --If Ali were DISQUALIFIED for repeatedly refusing the referees' orders to go to a neutral corner, Liston would have WON... It also would have been different IF THE COUNT WERE SUSPENDED because of Ali's failure to go to a neutral corner (like Dempsey-Tunney 2) ..... If the rules were followed Liston may have won.
Welcome back.....I see you continue to ignore relevant info, in order to profess your set of beliefs.
No rule against that. But cmon.......I clearly said "No matter how close you want to score it".....and it appears YOU want to score it very closely....as the judges did. I then mention very clearly that I believe that "one fighter is "in charge"........
And if you think Sonny was "in charge" with all that ineffective leaping, lunging, and mostly futile attempts to lay serious leather on this guy......DESPITE his opponent being practically blind for 2 minutes........
Or maybe "Clay" (as was his name at that time) simply was relying on his later PROVEN iron Jaw to shake those "heavy shots" that Liston MUST have been landing, off. Maybe Clay was employing his later rather PROVEN ability to avoid such shots based on the education that "enry gave him in a previous matchup. I mean fighters do get better in time right? While others begin to fade.
Oh.....I mentioned that....you just ignored me. As you often do.
Kalan.....you and I just disagree on this. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Just continue to make your case......I'll make mine......and the world will continue to spin just fine.
So how much betetr(if any) had Sonny Liston have done in this fight if he had not severely injured his left arm in the first round with a wild swing that missed causing
both torn and seperated muscles and swelling and bleeding in his bicep ?
That's why the elder fighters must take care not to hurt themselves pursuing their "prey".....otherwise they get eaten by the youngers.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but Sonny's arm actually falls off in the corner after the first round.....but the cornermen were able to re-attach before the one minute mark.
BuzzBox... YOU"RE the guy who ignores FACTS and makes up your own facts as you pleae... Your attempts at humor and sarcasm fail miserably as well... Fighters get injured... They often suffer massive upsets because of it...
Harry Greb suffered a broken arm and was stopped - losing the fight in an upset.
Ali suffered a broken jaw... That had something to do with the shitt-kicking he got from Ken Norton ... Big upset.
Did Harry Wills' broken arm have anything to do with Wills getting stopped in 2 rounds by Jim Johnson??? Another upset.
Did Jack Johnson's "draw" with Jim Johnson have anything to do with Johnson suffering a broken left arm??? Their fight was mysteriously halted after 10 rounds... The 10-round distance helped with the "draw" and allowed Jack Johnson to retain the Heavyweight Title... I question if that fight was scheduled for 15 or 20 rounds until the injury... Maybe the Johnson team did some quick maneuvering when Johnson was having severe problems defending himself with his broken limb...
Marcel Cerdan suffered a upset loss to Jake LaMotta when he severely injured his left shoulder... Another Big upset.
You're ignoring not only the badly injured left arm... but Liston's lack of fights and rounds in the previous 3 years -- which became a factor when Sonny failed to score a quick KO as usual... You're also ignoring all the punches Liston landed which won him enough rounds and points to keep the fight close through the 6th round - a round where Liston couldn't defend himself because of the injury... You're so biased it's ridiculous.. When you're evaluating somebody's boxing skills - the circumstances of his defeats are relative to the discussion.. The fight was dead even - even with the injury.
Liston easily reversed a loss his suffered due to a broken jaw (so did Ali - but questionably, not easily).... Liston suffered a badly injured arm in his 2nd defeat and was not allowed to reverse it - due to a Keystone Kops performance from referee Walcott and the Maine Boxing Commission in general... In his last defeat Liston was probably past 50 years old... Liston was never conclusively defeated in his entire career -- until Leotis Martin caught up with an empty shell of a past great.
Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018, 12:37
The complete closed-circuit broadcast
This is apparently the 'relayed" satellite version for the UK that was shown in the early morning hours on the BBC..
Maybe the punch that Liston missed that injured himself was the one thrown at 10:22 of the clip ?
Ali must have sensed something was wrong with Liston to go at him like he did at 11:58 anyways.
Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018, 12:37
The complete closed-circuit broadcast
This is apparently the 'relayed" satellite version for the UK that was shown in the early morning hours on the BBC..
Maybe the punch that Liston missed that injured himself was the one thrown at 10:22 of the clip ?
Ali must have sensed something was wrong with Liston to go at him like he did at 11:58 anyways.
I don't think it was that missed left hook. Liston both missed and connected with a bunch of left hooks and jabs - even after he started complaining about his shoulder and arm hurting really bad... Liston's left jab, hooks, and uppercuts looked sloppy from the start and the precision he showed versus Patterson was never there.. I think Liston was injured somewhat in training, but in his arrogance he thought Clay was a mouthy 2-round job who was no better than Patterson... After all, that is what most all the pundits said... The experts and analysts made Liston a massive favorite and Liston bought into the view that he would destroy the "Louisville Lip."
That is something you should guard against and never do... You should never buy into the opinion of so-called boxing experts who never pulled on a glove.. Overconfidence is worse than not believing you can win -- and is generally how big upsets happen.. If you think you have little chance but you're a hard worker, you'll still prepare and train as hard as you can so you don't embarrass yourself too badly.. You want to do better than expected and often you surprise yourself and win.. But when everyone says you're unbeatable it's time to worry.. You'll tend to slack off a bit.. Why bust your ass when your opponent is such a big underdog that you'll probably get rid of him in a couple rounds without really trying?
I think Liston was fine coming in......but not so fine going out......and he quite likely hurt himself attempting to beat the young lad.......and that's how the cookie crumbled.......
Kalan........take your lazy self and watch the NEXT fight Liston had.....a fight that Liston won......he don't look 2 cents different than he did in his losing outing to Clay. Except the guy he beats is about as effective as Clay was in the first two minutes of the "liniment" round.
I'm not bias....... I ASSESS and the films don't lie.......just take a look at that next fight Liston had.....and summon your very best evaluation......and tell me how much "better" Liston looks in that win vs his lost to Clay.
You can't...because it's pretty much the same guy.....just with a much lesser opponent.
I'm going to continue to enjoy your contributions.....because just like the stopped military clock your are right every once in a while. Maybe slightly most more often.
Golden Moldie... Your ignorant opinions aren't worth dirt... Liston was AHEAD on points going into the 6th -- and he was even Steven after the 6th... Clay won the 6th because Liston's left arm got progressive worse til he couldn't continue... That's the story... Anything else is fanboyism and Buzz is the worst fanboy here... It's a fact that if Liston could hold Ali even with a badly injured left arm he'd do a lot better if he were 100% healthy and fit... He was after all a massive favorite to win.
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 Feb 2018, 21:09
A lot of your info is "in your minds eye"
I think Liston was fine coming in......but not so fine going out......and he quite likely hurt himself attempting to beat the young lad.......and that's how the cookie crumbled.......
Kalan........take your lazy self and watch the NEXT fight Liston had.....a fight that Liston won......he don't look 2 cents different than he did in his losing outing to Clay.
Take YOUR lazy ass and watch the Amos Johnson fight... It's a better representation of Liston, post Ali... Liston fought Johnson 8 months after he easily beat Henry Cooper in England to earn a Title Fight with Ali... Ali decided to fight Cooper instead of Johnson, because Johnson gave Ali a good beating in the Pan Am Trials as an amateur.. Johnson had a very nifty left hook that ripped both Ali and Cooper - but he couldn't get the punch working against Liston.
Gerhard Zech wasn't a representative fight… Liston was even more rusty cuz he fought so infrequently before Zech.... He started to look better with the Elmer Rush and Dave Bailey fights.. He was really cooking and looked deadly versus Amos Johnson.. He looked slow.. You can have great form at a very old age, but you can't retrieve a young athlete’s reflexes.
YOU think Liston was fine coming into the “Clay” fight... I think he was about 20% of the fighter who showed for Patterson.. Liston was a great puncher.. I believe he was already injured in training camp because his left jab and hook -- 2 of the best weapons of ALL TIME -- weren't looking sharp.. They didn’t look like they did for Patterson, Folley, Williams, Harris, Valdes, and many other Liston opponents when Sonny was much younger.. or even Amos Johnson who he fought when he was a couple years OLDER than he was for Ali.
In my view it’s much more important for great punchers to stay active with tons of fights than other boxers.. They finish their opponents off so fast they don’t get enough rounds in to stay sharp... So you fight them a lot more... Mike Tyson fought 28 times in 18 months and won the Heavyweight Title at age 20... That's how punchers should do it.
BTW "Stevie Wonder could have deciphered from that film" .... Deciphered whatever he wanted because he's BLIND,
The 3 professional judges scoring the fight could see... I assume they had decent eyesight... How good do you have to see to be a judge of a World Championship Fight??? Sometimes that's a question with the scores they come up with.... But, I mean you're right at ringside so you couldn't get a better view of the fight than a professional boxing judge gets... Those 3 seemed to get it about right because it was fairly close -- though Liston wasn't doing much besides defending himself in the final round so something seemed to be amiss with him.
The crowd was angry. Nobody knew about the injury until it was reported as the reason Liston quit. Members of the Florida Boxing Commission were blowing their stack and demanding Liston be examined by many doctors cuz they wanted one to tell them he could have continued fighting and his condition wasn't that serious. The doctors all agreed the injury was serious and Liston couldn't have continued.
Those are not the rantings of a crazy man. But Kalan, I just don't know why you can't look at the Zech fight and understand what I'm talking about. It actually sounds like you do get it....since you want me to ignore that fight, and watch another fight that you believe helps make your point. Sounds like you understand mine, but wish to ignore it.
Also......Clay WAS in charge....I think even YOU get that......but in this case the judges probably leaned a bit to the champion as they often do....no big news there. From the film, and in this era, I think judges would have it a bit in Clay's favor. Don't you? And of course you think it's explainable because Liston was maimed going in.
Also.... Most people wanted the kid shut up, though they had little love for the standing champ. You say your older than me so you must remember the attitude of that time. That could explain the odd judging as well....
But the hail mary almost worked..... the liniment strategy.......I'm sort of surprised it hasn't happened more often.
I had read (somewhere) that Liston wanted to call off or post pone the fight just a couple weeks before it because
he had injured his shoulder in training and missed 4 sparring sessions around early Februauary and Valentines Day.
He personally visted the Miami Boxing commision but they said no because he postponed the re-match with Patterson
earlier because he twisted his knee playing golf.
When asked after the fight and claim as to why they went thru with the fight anyway.
Listons manager Jack Nilon was quoted as saying
"Because we thought we could get away with".
Caractacus is right... There was a lot of talk about Liston's taking time off from training.
I told you Liston had a bad shoulder coming into the Clay fight.... I've never seen him throw such sloppy left jabs, left hooks, and left uppercuts.... Liston can be ranked among the greatest 2 left hand punchers in the History of the Division.
I picked Clay to win because of Liston's advanced age and his lack of fights and rounds in the previous 3 years.... I also heard about Liston taking time off from training and sparring, and thought he was way overconfident....
Publicly Liston said, "I don't have to train that hard. I only have to train 5 days for a guy like Clay." You don't say that crap... He had to have some excuse for not sparring or training... You don't say "I have a bad shoulder that I have to rest."
When I saw Liston throwing those lame lefts in the 1st round, they weren't having any impact on Ali's chin and he seemed almost to wince when he threw....especially when he landed one.... Until I heard about the injured shoulder, I just attributed Liston's lame effort to age and ring rust.... When you have those 2 things working against you a serious injury is something you can't afford to have.... I rank Sonny Liston ahead of Ali all-time - despite the results of their 2 fights.
Kalan wrote: ↑27 Feb 2018, 16:07
Caractacus is right... There was a lot of talk about Liston's taking time off from training.
I told you Liston had a bad shoulder coming into the Clay fight.... I've never seen him throw such sloppy left jabs, left hooks, and left uppercuts.... Liston can be ranked among the greatest 2 left hand punchers in the History of the Division.
I picked Clay to win because of Liston's advanced age and his lack of fights and rounds in the previous 3 years.... I also heard about Liston taking time off from training and sparring, and thought he was way overconfident....
Publicly Liston said, "I don't have to train that hard. I only have to train 5 days for a guy like Clay." You don't say that crap... He had to have some excuse for not sparring or training... You don't say "I have a bad shoulder that I have to rest."
When I saw Liston throwing those lame lefts in the 1st round, they weren't having any impact on Ali's chin and he seemed almost to wince when he threw....especially when he landed one.... Until I heard about the injured shoulder, I just attributed Liston's lame effort to age and ring rust.... When you have those 2 things working against you a serious injury is something you can't afford to have.... I rank Sonny Liston ahead of Ali all-time - despite the results of their 2 fights.
You managed to pick one of the bigger upsets in heavyweight history despite the fact that you weren't even born? That's almost as impressive as being pulled out of the crowd to flatten the world's (unnamed) 9th ranked heavyweight in a public sparring session. I have to hand it to you, you're good. Real good.
Some 9th ranked guys don't deserve to be ranked... They never fought anybody and are ranked on their number of wins vs losses... They disappear from the rankings quickly like this guy did... I was a real good puncher but had novice boxing skills because I was a raw amateur... I could absorb well, and he hammered me around the ring in the 1st round.
I also picked Johansson to upset Patterson 5 years earlier... I knew he couldn't box well, but I thought he would sneak up on Patterson because Europeans were generally terrible boxers in those days...
And I was born in the 40's... I was involved with other sports so I never boxed as a youngster... I just loved to watch it, bought every boxing magazine out there -- and nobody better be watching anything else when there was a boxing match on TV because there'd be a fight right there... My mom once threatened to have me thrown on jail when I she wanted to watch something else when there was a fight on... I said, "That's okay with me if they have the fight on down there."
remember the early days when television first came out and available to the general public in the late 1940's and early 1950's ?
People would go to the local bar and watch the fights there.
I don't remember him being "hated" around this time.(1965-66)
It wasn't until he refused to be drafted in 1967 that some people began not to like him for that reason.\(particularly when their own sons and brothers had to go,either that or go to Canada in the middle of the night).
Here is what Dr. Robbins(Chief Physician of the Miami Beach Boxing Commision) who examined the X-Rays of Liston after the fight said:
"We came to the conclusion that Sonny Liston suffered an injury to the biceps tendon of the left shoulder.
with the result that this seprated and tear of muscle fibres with some haemmorrage in to the muscle belly.
This condition would be sufficient to incapciacitat him and prevent him from defending himself".
Which few took seriously. There are witness of him throwing a chair with that arm in the dressing room after the fight. He was also throwing punches with that arm near the end of the 6th round. He was losing, knew he wouldn't last another 9 rounds and quit.