BoxRec

Two years ago Ortiz was the top fighter in the division in the eyes of many (on here & elsewhere).

Meanwhile Wilder was considered a joke (ditto), or at least a caveman with great power (by me).

Had they met in the summer of 2016 I know who most would be picking

But, without losing, Ortiz is now a considerable underdog this weekend.

What changed your opinion?

Ortiz's flat performances under the Matchroom banner?

His drug issues?

Wilders much improved performance against Stiverne?

Or is your opinion the same now as it was then

I think Wilder has kept improving and Ortiz has declined. Terrible performance against Scott and he didn't really look great against Allen or the few journeymen since. I'm pretty sure Wilder would have starched Allen in one. Wilder has some poise and patience now, I don't see him giving Ortiz the countering opportunities he needs and cuban fighters don't seem to show good chins. Casamayor, Rigo, Gamboa, Lara etc, all got bounced off the canvas a few times in their careers. Kid Gavilan did have an exceptional chin though.

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:06 I think Wilder has kept improving and Ortiz has declined. Terrible performance against Scott and he didn't really look great against Allen or the few journeymen since. I'm pretty sure Wilder would have starched Allen in one. Wilder has some poise and patience now, I don't see him giving Ortiz the countering opportunities he needs and cuban fighters don't seem to show good chins. Casamayor, Rigo, Gamboa, Lara etc, all got bounced off the canvas a few times in their careers. Kid Gavilan did have an exceptional chin though.

Dorticos showed a mad f*cking chin the other week. Took about 100 full on slugs before succumbing

Taansend wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:13

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:06 I think Wilder has kept improving and Ortiz has declined. Terrible performance against Scott and he didn't really look great against Allen or the few journeymen since. I'm pretty sure Wilder would have starched Allen in one. Wilder has some poise and patience now, I don't see him giving Ortiz the countering opportunities he needs and cuban fighters don't seem to show good chins. Casamayor, Rigo, Gamboa, Lara etc, all got bounced off the canvas a few times in their careers. Kid Gavilan did have an exceptional chin though.

Dorticos showed a mad f*cking chin the other week. Took about 100 full on slugs before succumbing

Good point. Dorticos will come again.

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:20

Taansend wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:13

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:06 I think Wilder has kept improving and Ortiz has declined. Terrible performance against Scott and he didn't really look great against Allen or the few journeymen since. I'm pretty sure Wilder would have starched Allen in one. Wilder has some poise and patience now, I don't see him giving Ortiz the countering opportunities he needs and cuban fighters don't seem to show good chins. Casamayor, Rigo, Gamboa, Lara etc, all got bounced off the canvas a few times in their careers. Kid Gavilan did have an exceptional chin though.

Dorticos showed a mad f*cking chin the other week. Took about 100 full on slugs before succumbing

Good point. Dorticos will come again.

I hope so Mate. You could do another Cruiser tourny with him, Briedis, Glowacki, Perez, Tabiti & a few others & I would definitely watch.

His last couple of fights Ortiz has looked a lot slower. Maybe it's because he can't do the PEDs anymore. Or maybe the rumors about his age are true and he's actually in his late 40's.

Wilders opponents so far have been poor at best. So it makes skeptics like myself wonder if the Wilder camp knows something about Ortiz we don't. This is by far Wilder's biggest test and the first person he's fought who's legitimately one of the currently top heavyweights.

If Wilder does win he finally deserves the creditability his career has lacked.

I always think I must have missed something regarding Ortiz. He was supposedly a guy to give absolutely anyone fits but I just never saw it.

He's also (if his given DOB is correct) nearing 40 with some pretty ropy fights to build himself up to this. Two years since he beat (an old) Thompson; ever since that he's had the horrible fight against Scott, Dave Allen, and a 16-5-1 guy in a fight I admittedly haven't seen.

Whilst it remains easy to be critical of Wilder's opposition he's gone through the sort of fringe contenders you'd expect world champions to with relatively little trouble. I'm not even sure it's purely a last two years thing; after the first Stiverne fight I think he became a fair favourite in a fight with Ortiz.

Ortiz was punching and moving like a tortoise in his last fight. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see him done inside 60 seconds like Stiverne in the rematch. If he comes in at that pace he will be taking right hands to the chin immediately

Wilder has improved whilst Ortiz looks to be on the slide.
Also he’s older than he says and has the turning speed of a Renault Espace.

I’m quite high on Wilder though. His technique might be awful but he’s effective.

PredatorHayds wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 13:25 Wilder has improved whilst Ortiz looks to be on the slide.
Also he’s older than he says and has the turning speed of a Renault Espace.

I’m quite high on Wilder though. His technique might be awful but he’s effective.

Sometimes not being "correct" technically can be advantage. Vernon forrest was a very good pure boxer and didnt know how to handle the very unorthodox mayorga.

Exoddus wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:26 His last couple of fights Ortiz has looked a lot slower.

This sums it up nicely for me.

The question is, is Ortiz now too slow to take advantage of Wilder's obvious technical flaws? Against Scott and Allen he was throwing nice punches, well balanced, technically very neat and tidy but sluggish. He can throw lovely looking punches as much as he likes but if Wilder's windmills land earlier he's in trouble.

I think Ortiz’s two drug bans have raised a few eyebrows, if he felt the need to cheat against journeymen then it makes you wonder how good he really is. Personally I could never see what all ththe hype was about, if he had anything he seems to have lost it.

I would pick the Ortiz from the Jennings fight in a heartbeat. Now not so sure, but I'm still picking Ortiz.

He got old and aged fast, but I think he can still beat Wilder quite easely actually

I thought Ortiz's chin is meant to be very solid?

I don't think it is a clear cut fight but I do think Ortiz has gone back and Wilder has come on.
If Ortiz is fit he could def win this.

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:20

Taansend wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:13

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 11:06 I think Wilder has kept improving and Ortiz has declined. Terrible performance against Scott and he didn't really look great against Allen or the few journeymen since. I'm pretty sure Wilder would have starched Allen in one. Wilder has some poise and patience now, I don't see him giving Ortiz the countering opportunities he needs and cuban fighters don't seem to show good chins. Casamayor, Rigo, Gamboa, Lara etc, all got bounced off the canvas a few times in their careers. Kid Gavilan did have an exceptional chin though.

Dorticos showed a mad f*cking chin the other week. Took about 100 full on slugs before succumbing

Good point. Dorticos will come again.

He’s potentially the 2nd best cruiser weight in the division, needs a better trainer though.

wlders best performance was stvenre 1 by far. no dea where the improved stuff comes from. watch the actual fights after that and hes sloppy as ever wth very little measured smart boxing or any real sign that hes better. was gettng outjabbed by gerald - was very competve fght wth artur the pole- struggled wth molina and was hurt etc- had the eye busted by duhaupas

but hes got unreal power and qute athletc and for me always beat ortz

tbh i havent really seen wlders unorthodox stuff really be particularly effective. hes far most effectve when he manages to throw the rght hand straight and wth some form. i dont believe he has some befuddlng unorthodox technque. when he gets most wld imo his effectiveness drops. thats how a guy such as molina and artur and duhaupas goes so many rounds. he couldnt finish them earlier because he was sloppy and all over the place and easer to avoid.

tell me his 'improved' showing since winning the belt and what was improved. its just easy to assume a guy gets better into his reign but its not always true

Coco wrote: ↑28 Feb 2018, 15:48 I don't think it is a clear cut fight but I do think Ortiz has gone back and Wilder has come on.
If Ortiz is fit he could def win this.

Anthony Fowler posted a video of him training today saying how fit he looked

i serously dont get why so many ppl see a bunch of improvement from wlder. although tbh i dont beleve he needed to get better. the raw gifts will show eventually.

I have really odd feelings for this fight, the one guy seems to have a massive syst on his hand and the other guy looks like drunk, ah well, judge for yourself:

Ortiz was 52 back when Tyson was champ

There's no way Ortiz is going to be able to punch much with his left. His left hand looks swollen really bad. He's a southpaw too. Fight should probably be off.

I think Ortiz can handle it actually, even with just one hand he's probably better as Wilder.