BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Mar 2018, 16:37 Bowe had a better win/loss record, KO% and he weighed more. Doesn't that automatically mean that he would win?

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑08 Mar 2018, 17:52 Ali and Holmes are the strongest psyche's the sport has ever produced ...... I'm on the record as believing [Bowe] beats Lewis prime for prime.... But as Alp jokingly refers to the "stats" with a sense of humor, and Kalan seems to take them seriously.... So...In my goofy world.....Foreman hits harder than Ike based on what my "lying eyes" tell me

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Mar 2018, 18:44 Holmes would completely outclass Bowe. Although I have to say, Bowe had a year or so of being quite good, Holmes had all the tools save the lights out punch. The two main talents of Holmes would no doubt get into Bowe's feeble head:

1 - Arguably the greatest jab I've ever seen in the division
2 - Amazing recuperative powers (ask Shavers)

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Mar 2018, 17:27

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Mar 2018, 18:44 Holmes would completely outclass Bowe. Although I have to say, Bowe had a year or so of being quite good, Holmes had all the tools save the lights out punch. The two main talents of Holmes would no doubt get into Bowe's feeble head:

1 - Arguably the greatest jab I've ever seen in the division
2 - Amazing recuperative powers (ask Shavers)

but it's Larrys footwork and athleticism that give him the biggest edge against Bowe, IMO

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2018, 17:25 Dear Kalan....time for the truth patrol again.....you are keeping me workin' today.

Foreman and Peralta......Foreman and Ali......Foreman and Young.


Not one of those losses, (or in Peralta's case a win for George) can possibly speak to Foreman's hitting power. What irks me to pieces, is that I think you know this....and are pulling our chain here. But on the odd possibility that you believe this.....let me offer a counter thought for your perusal. These losses speak to certain fighters ability to be elusive when the Nukes close in. All fast, all evasive, all master craftsman. Two defeated Foreman and the other made him look a bit clumsy.. And....above average chins each of them. Not a bad formula for a darn good chance against the hardest hitting heavyweight in History. Given a good clear shot....Foreman could put anyone to sleep. Trick for the opponent was to never get caught flush.

Respectfully submitted
your friend
BuzzBox

Kalan wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 02:22
Let's just say that Foreman had clear shots at Ali's, Young's, and 194-pound Peralta's chins... None of them were master boxers. They were floored and humiliated by others who hit them.

And it's not a guy who gets stopped by feather punching Willie Pastrano.

Kalan wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 02:22

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2018, 17:25 Dear Kalan....time for the truth patrol again.....you are keeping me workin' today.

Foreman and Peralta......Foreman and Ali......Foreman and Young.


Not one of those losses, (or in Peralta's case a win for George) can possibly speak to Foreman's hitting power. What irks me to pieces, is that I think you know this....and are pulling our chain here. But on the odd possibility that you believe this.....let me offer a counter thought for your perusal. These losses speak to certain fighters ability to be elusive when the Nukes close in. All fast, all evasive, all master craftsman. Two defeated Foreman and the other made him look a bit clumsy.. And....above average chins each of them. Not a bad formula for a darn good chance against the hardest hitting heavyweight in History. Given a good clear shot....Foreman could put anyone to sleep. Trick for the opponent was to never get caught flush.

Respectfully submitted
your friend
BuzzBox

Thanks for your flights of fancy Buzzbox... Let's just say that Foreman had clear shots at Ali's, Young's, and 194-pound Peralta's chins... None of them were master boxers. They were floored and humiliated by others who hit them.

You have a very weird notion about what a master boxer is... It's not a guy with no body attack or inside game who gets hit with a flood of left hooks - some of which knock the crap out of him... It's not a guy who gets stopped by slow swingers like Gerry Cooney and Ernie Shavers.... And it's not a guy who gets stopped by feather punching Willie Pastrano.

Master boxers are guys like Vasyl Lomachenko.... Mikey Garcia.... Floyd Mayweather.... Salvador Sanchez.... Terence Crawford.... and other highly skilled pugilists of History who never got knocked down, stopped, or beaten up.... Eder Jofre might qualify... I don't know if he ever got floored by anybody. He had 78 fights and fought to age 40.

Now Gene Tunney DID get knocked down once and probably still qualified as a master because he was suffering vision problems in his last 2 fights and developed a blind spot - which he said prompted his retirement at 31.... His eyes went bad from staring into the sun for long periods of time... He knew it was hurting his eyes but he wanted to increase his will power.... He wrote all about it in his book "Arms for Living" .... I thought he was a really intelligent guy until I read that...

Controversial wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 07:46

Kalan wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 02:22
Let's just say that Foreman had clear shots at Ali's, Young's, and 194-pound Peralta's chins... None of them were master boxers. They were floored and humiliated by others who hit them.

And it's not a guy who gets stopped by feather punching Willie Pastrano.

Peralta easily beat Pastrano in their first fight. He lost the rematch due to a cut in a world title fight (in Pastrano's hometown), he wasn’t knocked out or down. It was said to be a poor stoppage too.


.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 23:14 Kalan......why do you always pretend not to know precisely what I'm aiming at?

Ok....I'm not going to disagree that I used the words "master craftsmen" in the case of Young, Ali and Peralta.
And for the record.....I was generally referring to their ability to provide a good defense for themselves.


You knew that.

And.....we could have another conversation on each of these fighters ability to conduct good offensive maneuvers as well, none of them are as lame in their offense as you are in your willful obfuscation.

And you surely are a benchmark example of a willful obfuscator would you not agree?

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑08 Mar 2018, 17:52 I may be "odd man out" here because I'm going to just cover a nuance that is at least worthy of consideration.

Larry Holmes was a much better champion....and my gut says he wins this. AND

I've always felt Bowe was rather amazing at his peak which lasted for the blink of an eye....and which is always fodder for most everyone as to why he does not rank with the greats. I think Saad may have shared this opinion with me. A rare case where he and I saw eye to eye. So as odd as it sounds..you take the best Larry, and face him against that "window of opportunity" where Bowe did show remarkable ability....and you have yourself a real fight. In my opinion.

Much of my take here is that psyche's win fights as often as conditioning skill and talent. And Ali and Holmes are the strongest psyche's the sport has ever produced....which is why I favor Larry. But much of the physical data could point in Bowe's direction. I'm on the record as believing he beats Lewis prime for prime.....but Lewis could probably just do a slow ring walk, and enough time would have passed to where he's back in favor....even in my estimation. That's how ridiculously short Riddicks prime was.

But as Alp jokingly refers to the "stats" with a sense of humor, and Kalan seems to take them seriously when he needs to and ignore them on rainy days, they do tell a bit of a story. Beating Holyfield should give one pause.

So...In my goofy world.....Foreman hits harder than Ike based on what my "lying eyes" tell me...............I simply believe it to be true......Larry beats Bowe in most cases....but IF this happens at Bowes pinnacle.....I would not place a bet. But that pinnacle has such a short warranty.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Mar 2018, 10:37 No they have not improved. In the last few years it has been mostly one huge guy vs another. Someone has to win. There simply are very few smaller heavyweights. The fights themselves have little action and usually suck.

Wilder weighed less than 215 for his last fight and beat a guy weighed 240. He has been outweighed in his last 18 fights and won them all.
Holyfield was beating big guys in the 1990s. When he was way, way past it only the judges that thought he didn't beat Valuev.
Roy Jones won a WBS title weighing 193.

It ability that makes the difference. If the bigger guy is better, he will usually win. If the smaller guy is better, he will usually win.
In this case, Holmes is not nearly as heavy but was the better of the two; though when Bowe was at his best the gap was closer than many might think.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Mar 2018, 15:50 Completely disagree with that modern training is light years better.