BoxRec

A prime Ken Norton against a prime Ron Lyle.


What advantages would Ken have over Ron?


What advantages would Lyle have over Norton?


What do you see happening in this fight?


Who would win? Why?


Please explain.

I don't think Kenny would survive Lyle. Stylistically, Norton always had problems with punchers. And Lyle could box too. His performance against Ali showed his boxing skills despite the ending.

You're right.... Norton was a wide open target for any good puncher who matched him in size and strength - and that's why the fight was never made... Norton wasn't interested... Kind of like you

The advantages for Lyle was his right hand punching power and Norton's stance... Kenny had his left hand down at his waist and gave you his head to shoot at, trying to dip under your punches... Versus a terrific puncher and sharp hitter, with height, that didn't work very well... A stand up boxer with with terrific power and a jab makes things very difficult for Lyle... Norton wasn't that... Though he was fairly tall his stance was almost like Frazier's.

Norton and Lyle did spar however.
Back when CBS 60 minutes took Lyle to the Catskills to originally spar with Joe Frazier
when he was preparing to fight Ali in The Battle of the Century.
but Frazier turned it down because it wouldn't be fair for him to spar with an amateur.
I think there is a brief clip of it,but both are wearing headgear of course.

Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 13:17 Norton and Lyle did spar however.
Back when CBS 60 minutes took Lyle to the Catskills to originally spar with Joe Frazier
when he was preparing to fight Ali in The Battle of the Century.
but Frazier turned it down because it wouldn't be fair for him to spar with an amateur.
I think there is a brief clip of it,but both are wearing headgear of course.

Didn't Ali send Lyle over to Frazier's camp with a message saying take it easy on the kid or something like that?

You can't rely on sparring sessions... because boxers go back and forth as they make adjustments... If they're an even matchup you need a couple months of sparring to know who's making better adjustments and is getting the up.

George Foreman sparred with Boone Kirkman and looked terrible... Both Jack Hurley and Kirkman wanted a Foreman fight after that... George is smarter than a lot of people think... The sparring session was a con job.

If a cat like Jose Luis Garcia can take Ken, then a legit threat like Ron Lyle would take him also. Mac Foster too, would kayo Ken.

Norton was a better talent than any of these guys.

He would outpoint the much slower Lyle and probably stop the overhyped Foster.

Lyle could box, but I wouldn't go by the Ali fight as evidence of any terrific boxing talent.

Ali was about 7 months removed from the Foreman fight. He had fallen in love with the rope a dope and his so-called Russian Tank, where he stood at mid ring with his hands up and invited his opponent to whack him.

Ali was simply waiting for Lyle to punch himself out--a la Foreman--and threw little in return.

A real good, active boxer, Jimmy Young, twice made Lyle look like a boxing novice.

My heart tells me Lyle, but logically I'd lean towards Norton. He was a highly underrated fighter all the way around. He could box and punch, and I think his weak chin is overblown. Frazier was tough as nails and was blown out in two rounds just like Ken was. His kayo loss to Gerry Cooney is also overplayed because at that time Kenny was struggling with guys like Tex Cobb and Scott LeDoux. Lyle was a monster puncher, sure, and had the skills but he could be outsmarted and outpunched. A counter puncher, like Norton, would cause problems for a guy like that I'd imagine. Besides, Kenny was harder to hit cleanly than he looked.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 15:02 Norton was a better talent than any of these guys.

He would outpoint the much slower Lyle and probably stop the overhyped Foster.

Lyle could box, but I wouldn't go by the Ali fight as evidence of any terrific boxing talent.

Ali was about 7 months removed from the Foreman fight. He had fallen in love with the rope a dope and his so-called Russian Tank, where he stood at mid ring with his hands up and invited his opponent to whack him.

Ali was simply waiting for Lyle to punch himself out--a la Foreman--and threw little in return.

A real good, active boxer, Jimmy Young, twice made Lyle look like a boxing novice.

It almost makes sense what you say.... Kenny fought quick boxers and he worked them over -- because they couldn't stab him that easy or keep range on him... Norton did a HELL of a lot better than Lyle or Foreman did versus Ali and Young.

When Norton faced big punchers it didn't go as well.... Lyle beat the crap out of Ernie Shavers... He had Foreman stretched and nearly knocked out.... But Norton couldn't get good leather on either of them... They were right up his nose hole.

Style wise - Lyle was a Hell of a lot closer to Foreman and Shavers than he was to Ali or Young.... So I figure he wins.... The defense Norton used gave him a lot... But it also took away a lot -- like protection from a hailstorm of big bombs from 220 pound sluggers who can throw with both hands... Lyle qualifies.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 15:15 My heart tells me Lyle, but logically I'd lean towards Norton. He was a highly underrated fighter all the way around. He could box and punch, and I think his weak chin is overblown. Frazier was tough as nails and was blown out in two rounds just like Ken was. His kayo loss to Gerry Cooney is also overplayed because at that time Kenny was struggling with guys like Tex Cobb and Scott LeDoux. Lyle was a monster puncher, sure, and had the skills but he could be outsmarted and outpunched. A counter puncher, like Norton, would cause problems for a guy like that I'd imagine. Besides, Kenny was harder to hit cleanly than he looked.

Lyle, of course, could possibly land the big shot and get Norton out of there.

It happened a few times with Norton.

But to me this is one of those eye test fights.

Make it simple. Just watch them. Who's the more talented fighter?

That's the guy who will win 88% of the time. Styles be damned.

Don't get me wrong I think Lyle in about any other era would have been Heavyweight champion of the world, but so could Norton have been. Just because Lyle was great against Foreman and others doesn't quite mean he'd be a threat to Norton.

They had a few opponents in common. Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Young, etc. Norton beat Quarry and Young, whereas Lyle didn't. Norton lost to Foreman and Shavers, whereas Lyle beat Shavers but lost to Foreman. Styles ultimately make fights. Norton, arguably, beat Ali 2 out of 3 if not all 3. Lyle lost by TKO to Ali.

I'd lean towards Norton just being a bit greater than Lyle.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:15 Don't get me wrong I think Lyle in about any other era would have been Heavyweight champion of the world, but so could Norton have been. Just because Lyle was great against Foreman and others doesn't quite mean he'd be a threat to Norton.

They had a few opponents in common. Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Young, etc. Norton beat Quarry and Young, whereas Lyle didn't. Norton lost to Foreman and Shavers, whereas Lyle beat Shavers but lost to Foreman. Styles ultimately make fights. Norton, arguably, beat Ali 2 out of 3 if not all 3. Lyle lost by TKO to Ali.

I'd lean towards Norton just being a bit greater than Lyle.

Either way, I would have loved to see that fight!

SenorPipino wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:01 Make it simple. Just watch them. Who's the more talented fighter?

That's the guy who will win 88% of the time. Styles be damned.

100% of the time that Norton faced big, tall, 2-fisted powerhouse punchers on the world level he was flattened.... He doesn't pass the eye test.... His defense leaves his short-ribs wide open underneath and the top of his head barren,

Don't say styles be damned... Styles have historically played major roles in pitting weaknesses vs strengths.

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:20

SenorPipino wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:01 Make it simple. Just watch them. Who's the more talented fighter?

That's the guy who will win 88% of the time. Styles be damned.

100% of the time that Norton faced big, tall, 2-fisted powerhouse punchers on the world level he was flattened.... He doesn't pass the eye test.... His defense leaves his short-ribs wide open underneath and the top of his head barren,

Don't say styles be damned... Styles have historically played major roles in pitting weaknesses vs strengths.

As I said previously, if Lyle comes in to box, he loses, if he comes in to punch, Norton goes away in 5.

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:20

SenorPipino wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 16:01 Make it simple. Just watch them. Who's the more talented fighter?

That's the guy who will win 88% of the time. Styles be damned.

100% of the time that Norton faced big, tall, 2-fisted powerhouse punchers on the world level he was flattened.... He doesn't pass the eye test.... His defense leaves his short-ribs wide open underneath and the top of his head barren,

Don't say styles be damned... Styles have historically played major roles in pitting weaknesses vs strengths.

I don't necessarily believe that.

Certain styles can be difficult for fighters" no question about that.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that a fighter will lose simply because the other fighter's style presents adversity.

Superior talent can overcome a difficult style. It might not be easy but it can be overcome.

Norton was simply a more gifted fighter than Ron Lyle. Better jab, much faster, perplexing cross armed defense.

Minuses were poor footwork, couldn't fight effectively go backwards, and his sometimes suspect chin.

Lyle was an aggressive, plodding tough guy with a big punch. Pretty good chin, but not impenetrable.

Decent boxer, but not as talented in that regard as many here insist. Quarry thoroughly took him to school. So did Young.

I think Norton does the same behind a hard, fast jab and that looping overhand right. Lyle was not difficult to tag.

As always Lyle's power presents a threat to the Norton chin. That can't be ignored.

But I'll always go with the boxer I believe to simply be the better fighter.

A guy that could fight Ali to a standstill over 39 rounds. Who could give Holmes a hell of a battle over 15.

Bad style matchups can be solved. Lyle wasn't the man who could derail Norton, short of landing the bomb.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 19:21
Norton was simply a more gifted fighter than Ron Lyle. Better jab, much faster, perplexing cross armed defense.

As always Lyle's power presents a threat to the Norton chin. That can't be ignored.

But I'll always go with the boxer I believe to simply be the better fighter.

Norton's defense wasn't perplexing.... It left gaping holes for a puncher and was easy to defeat....

Lyle's power was not just a threat... It was a clear and present danger to even Foreman... and he shittcanned Shavers -- who in turn shittcanned Norton.... You have to say that style was massive trouble for Norton.

Norton's style wasn't that of a boxer... He was a foot dragging, head first plodder with a cross armed defense who got ripped by punchers like Foreman, Shavers, Cooney -- and Lyle as well if he ever got in there with Big Ronnie.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 15:15 A counter puncher, like Norton, would cause problems for a guy like that I'd imagine. Besides, Kenny was harder to hit cleanly than he looked.

Norton wasn't really a great counter puncher, he did not fight well going backwards. While he was clearly a lot faster than Lyle and also a sharper boxer, I don't believe he could fight Lyle the way Quarry (who was a great counter puncher) did. Norton would have to come forward and while I think he would be able to hit Lyle I just don't fancy his chances over he long haul. Did Norton have enough power to keep Lyle cautious? I don't think so.

I think Norton could hurt and stop Lyle.
How good was Lyle's chin? Like Norton, good, but not great. Ali hurt Lyle and stopped him. No reason Norton couldn't.
If it gets into a toe toe fight, it could go either way. However, Norton was certainly capable of outboxing Lyle.

hhaehre wrote: ↑19 Mar 2018, 10:43

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 15:15 A counter puncher, like Norton, would cause problems for a guy like that I'd imagine. Besides, Kenny was harder to hit cleanly than he looked.

Norton wasn't really a great counter puncher, he did not fight well going backwards. While he was clearly a lot faster than Lyle and also a sharper boxer, I don't believe he could fight Lyle the way Quarry (who was a great counter puncher) did. Norton would have to come forward and while I think he would be able to hit Lyle I just don't fancy his chances over he long haul. Did Norton have enough power to keep Lyle cautious? I don't think so.

He counter punched Ali to pieces three times lmao

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑19 Mar 2018, 11:02

hhaehre wrote: ↑19 Mar 2018, 10:43

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Mar 2018, 15:15 A counter puncher, like Norton, would cause problems for a guy like that I'd imagine. Besides, Kenny was harder to hit cleanly than he looked.

Norton wasn't really a great counter puncher, he did not fight well going backwards. While he was clearly a lot faster than Lyle and also a sharper boxer, I don't believe he could fight Lyle the way Quarry (who was a great counter puncher) did. Norton would have to come forward and while I think he would be able to hit Lyle I just don't fancy his chances over he long haul. Did Norton have enough power to keep Lyle cautious? I don't think so.

He counter punched Ali to pieces three times lmao

Counter punched Ali? You have got to be kidding, he was mostly moving forward and pressuring Ali. Whenever Norton let up, Ali won the round by flicking the jab in his face. If you're going to praise Nortons counter punching ability at least pick a fight where he did it effectively, like the Quarry fight.

He used the strategy that Joe Louis once suggested could beat Ali, which Eddie Futch utilized for Norton:

"Your not going to hit Ali by slipping, dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him while he’s punching. When he starts to jab you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe…that is what destroyed Ali’s rhythm."

"If you start from the center of the ring it will only take you three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time you jab, step in and jab again. Then do the same thing.... Don’t do like all the other guys do. Don’t throw your left hook to the head, he’ll pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

What Norton did, in essence, was a counter puncher attack. If Ali threw, you threw at the same time, etc.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Mar 2018, 10:54 I think Norton could hurt and stop Lyle.
How good was Lyle's chin? Like Norton, good, but not great. Ali hurt Lyle and stopped him. No reason Norton couldn't.
If it gets into a toe toe fight, it could go either way. However, Norton was certainly capable of outboxing Lyle.

Norton didn't have a "good" chin... Toe-to-toe with a big, tall, powerful puncher wasn't Norton's deal...

Kenny never recovered from a hard punch... He'd panic when he got hurt and he'd be gone... Lyle recovered from terrific head shots from Earnie Shavers... He was down and hurt bad... He recovered quickly and came back and brutalized Shavers with his greater height, size, and strength..... Lyle also recovered enough from devastating Foreman punches to stretch him out a couple times.. It was a tossup because they both missed with home run shots. Foreman was slightly bigger and stronger and you just had the feeling that he would be the last man dragging himself off the canvas.

Against both Shavers and Foreman - Norton melted away like butter on hot cakes when he started feeling the power.