BoxRec

What if Cus D'Amato was 25 years younger when he started training Tyson and their partnership continued through the 1980's and onwards? How do you think Tyson's life / career would have been different (if at all?)?

There are MANY, MANY WHAT IF's in Fistic History

What if Wladimir Klitschko had Emmanuel Steward to start his professional career???

What if America never got involved with Viet Nam and Ali was never drafted???

What if Larry Holmes started his amateur career 5 years earlier???

What if George Foreman didn't take 10 years off and had a trainer like Emmanuel Steward for his whole career???

What if Max Schmeling had Jack Blackburn for a coach and Louis had Schmeling's coach???

What if Floyd Mayweather had an average coach instead of his uncle and father???

What if Willie Pep weren't almost killed in a plane crash that took his chin away???

What if Gennady Golovkin were an American and started his pro career 6 years earlier???

What if Vasyl Lomachenko where an American citizen and started his pro career 5 years earler???

What if Vitali Klitschko never took up Kickboxing and didn't damage his legs so badly???

What if Ike Ibeabuchi were American and his legal troubles were taken care of by deep pockets like Wilder's were???

What if Emmanuel Steward stayed with Oliver McCall after he KO'd Lennox Lewis??? Instead of going over to Lewis???

What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't died at 23 -- but had a full career???

To get back to the original question...

I think he might have stayed focused for longer as he clearly respected D'amato. He was struggling to stay on the straight and narrow though even when D'amato was alive so was always a disaster waiting to happen in some respects.

Losing D'amato, marrying Givens, losing Rooney and hooking up with Don King certainly brought matters to a head quickly though.

Even with D'amato I think he would have struggled with Holyfield and Lewis though I would have given him a much better chance if he'd fought them earlier than he did with D'amato and Rooney in his corner.

ewenhay wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 15:19 To get back to the original question...

I think he might have stayed focused for longer as he clearly respected D'amato. He was struggling to stay on the straight and narrow though even when D'amato was alive so was always a disaster waiting to happen in some respects.

Losing D'amato, marrying Givens, losing Rooney and hooking up with Don King certainly brought matters to a head quickly though.

Even with D'amato I think he would have struggled with Holyfield and Lewis though I would have given him a much better chance if he'd fought them earlier than he did with D'amato and Rooney in his corner.

I'm thinking much along the same lines - he probably would have stopped (eventually) Douglas although it would have a been a wake up call...

D'Amato may have been able to keep Tyson focused for longer; hard to say if and for how long Tyson would have stayed with him. And D'Amato was not some boxing genius that some people make him out to be. Many thought his actual boxing knowledge as a trainer was not that good.

Rooney wasn't that great a coach.... The peak-a-boo defense has one (1) massive problem....

A really big, tall, strong, fast, rangy, and skillful opponent can rend it easily with quick jabs and straight rights... If you fire between the gloves, the peek-a-booer can't see a damned thing... Then you can fire around it with hooks and beat the life out of the peek-a-booer... This is why the Liston vs Patterson Fights were 2-minute jobs. Liston didn't beat everybody that fast... Tyson was just as big as Liston was... That's why Mike was able to run most opponents over...

But the boxers were so much bigger in Tyson's era than Patterson's era... It was inevitable Tyson was going to meet an opponent who was wrong for him... This is why Douglas was so confident... He had no reason to be if you looked at Douglas's record, but he the right style for Mike... He HAD the height, size, length, strength, speed, power, and skill.

It wasn't as if Buster got in there and and thought... "WHOOOA I can BEAT this guy!!!" ... Doesn't work like that... He KNEW!!!

The real question is-What if Mike Tyson had been born in 1908 ?
Would he have gotten anywhere near a shot at the title ?

Caractacus wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 16:58 The real question is-What if Mike Tyson had been born in 1908 ?
Would he have gotten anywhere near a shot at the title ?

Possibly. He was marketed really well early on like Joe Louis was. There wasnt the same paparazzi culture back then so they could easily have kept some of his extra curricular activities out of the public eye.

yeah,but Joe Louis was an intovert and Mike Tyson is not.

I love this because it's so easy to answer. Mike Tyson - Greatest HW Champ Ever. He would not have fell afoul after the Jimmy Jacobs' death. Cus was one of only two people MIke trusted and listened to. The other being Jacobs. NO Don King tentacles and proper training and preparation. Maybe even retire before 30 considering his style needs a young body. IMO

Tyson was a head case. No matter who was watching out for him. He was going to unravel at some point.

Yup! Just like James Dean played so many Dead End Kids he became one himself at 24. Tyson was headed for a fall.

I remember nodding in agreement when Larry Holmes said, "Mike Tyson will be dead or in prison in 5 years."

He was right. Mike did go to prison. But eventually Tyson matured and straightened out his life. It actually worked out better for Tyson in the long run than Holyfield, Ali, Frazier, Louis, Charles, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Bowe, and many others... He wasn't damaged too bad... He doesn't need to go around with body guards like Floyd Mayweather. He lives pretty good despite going through 300 million dollars like it was pocket change... He's a Hell of a lot more popular than a lot ex-champions.. He's relaxed.. Tyson and Foreman are the most popular former Heavyweight Champions.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 16:05 D'Amato may have been able to keep Tyson focused for longer; hard to say if and for how long Tyson would have stayed with him. And D'Amato was not some boxing genius that some people make him out to be. Many thought his actual boxing knowledge as a trainer was not that good.

Anyway the symbiosis of D'Amato as a trainer and Tyson as a boxer had worked out very good. Tyson needed someone to control him and D'Amato was able to do it. However, I find the following question more interesting: would motivated and focused Tyson have defeated Douglas that night? Becuse I doubt, that Douglas gave a damn, if Tyson had been focused or not, Douglas was motivated himself and just went there to perform with no fear and no backing up option. Furthermore, I doubt, that motivation, focusing or any other possible aid of D'Amato would have helped Tyson against Prime Holyfield.

I agree that Douglas fought a great fight and probably beat Tyson at this best, though obviously that is speculation. I wouldn't bet on him against a prime Holyfield either. I do think a great trainer may have helped Tyson beat the 34-year old shopworn Holyfield that Tyson lost to.

As for D'Amato I think his influence may be overblown. Yes he worked with Tyson when he was a kid. However at the time that he died, Tyson only had 11 pro fights and was just 19. He may have became derailed anyway.

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Mar 2018, 09:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 16:05 D'Amato may have been able to keep Tyson focused for longer; hard to say if and for how long Tyson would have stayed with him. And D'Amato was not some boxing genius that some people make him out to be. Many thought his actual boxing knowledge as a trainer was not that good.

Anyway the symbiosis of D'Amato as a trainer and Tyson as a boxer had worked out very good. Tyson needed someone to control him and D'Amato was able to do it. However, I find the following question more interesting: would motivated and focused Tyson have defeated Douglas that night? Becuse I doubt, that Douglas gave a damn, if Tyson had been focused or not, Douglas was motivated himself and just went there to perform with no fear and no backing up option. Furthermore, I doubt, that motivation, focusing or any other possible aid of D'Amato would have helped Tyson against Prime Holyfield.

Regardless of how good a trainer D'Amato was or wasn't -- he was a tremendous motivator... Tyson seemed to reach his peak at 21 and started tailing off... Some fighters like Tunney.... Mayweather... Joshua... the Klitschko Bros... Ward... Spence... Lomachenko... Marquez etc. are extremely self motivated... They train just as hard if their trainer is out of town that week and they never slack off for a second.

Tyson wasn't like that.. He was more like Joe Louis who needed Jack Blackburn.. Most boxers need somebody to lead them, drive them, and motivate them.. D'Amato and Jacobs were two people who had Tyson's ear.

Kalan wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 19:11

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Mar 2018, 09:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 16:05 D'Amato may have been able to keep Tyson focused for longer; hard to say if and for how long Tyson would have stayed with him. And D'Amato was not some boxing genius that some people make him out to be. Many thought his actual boxing knowledge as a trainer was not that good.

Anyway the symbiosis of D'Amato as a trainer and Tyson as a boxer had worked out very good. Tyson needed someone to control him and D'Amato was able to do it. However, I find the following question more interesting: would motivated and focused Tyson have defeated Douglas that night? Becuse I doubt, that Douglas gave a damn, if Tyson had been focused or not, Douglas was motivated himself and just went there to perform with no fear and no backing up option. Furthermore, I doubt, that motivation, focusing or any other possible aid of D'Amato would have helped Tyson against Prime Holyfield.

Regardless of how good a trainer D'Amato was or wasn't -- he was a tremendous motivator... Tyson seemed to reach his peak at 21 and started tailing off... Some fighters like Tunney.... Mayweather... Joshua... the Klitschko Bros... Ward... Spence... Lomachenko... Marquez etc. are extremely self motivated... They train just as hard if their trainer is out of town that week and they never slack off for a second.

Tyson wasn't like that.. He was more like Joe Louis who needed Jack Blackburn.. Most boxers need somebody to lead them, drive them, and motivate them.. D'Amato and Jacobs were two people who had Tyson's ear.

YES!

Kalan wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 23:33 Yup! Just like James Dean played so many Dead End Kids he became one himself at 24. Tyson was headed for a fall.

I remember nodding in agreement when Larry Holmes said, "Mike Tyson will be dead or in prison in 5 years."

He was right. Mike did go to prison. But eventually Tyson matured and straightened out his life. It actually worked out better for Tyson in the long run than Holyfield, Ali, Frazier, Louis, Charles, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Bowe, and many others... He wasn't damaged too bad... He doesn't need to go around with body guards like Floyd Mayweather. He lives pretty good despite going through 300 million dollars like it was pocket change... He's a Hell of a lot more popular than a lot ex-champions.. He's relaxed.. Tyson and Foreman are the most popular former Heavyweight Champions.

Great post Kalan.

I think Cus would've been able to semi-control him for a bit longer, but eventually King would've gotten his hands on him. And if not, Mike would've flown off the handle anyway. Only difference is I think he would've been reprimanded by Cus as opposed to (seemingly) encouraged by King.

I couldn't stand Tyson when he was an active fighter. I liked his fights I just didn't like him.
As Kalan pointed out he has matured and appears to ba at a good place on his life.
I wish him nothing but the best

I see someone added a very long list of What ifs....... I can only come up with one.

What if RODAN flew down from the sky and plucked up every cantankerous poster that incongruously contributed to an otherwise peaceful and happy group of pugilistic pontificating participants?

What then?

Kalan wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 15:01 There are MANY, MANY WHAT IF's in Fistic History

What if Willie Pep weren't almost killed in a plane crash that took his chin away???

What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't died at 23 -- but had a full career???

Ah! Sanchez. What a loss to the game. The timing ('83-'87) would have been perfect to move him up to LW. (Possible) multiple million dollar paydays: Camacho, Mancini, Bramble, Rosario, (Howard) Davis, Chavez, and many more. Even Azumah Nelson again would have been wonderful. Oh the fights we missed.

Always have to give you a hard time about this one. Pep was identified (newspaper) as being released from the emergency room with minor injuries. I.e. He went home the night of the crash. Maybe he just got old, like every other human does.

Ade L wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 10:18 What if Cus D'Amato was 25 years younger when he started training Tyson and their partnership continued through the 1980's and onwards? How do you think Tyson's life / career would have been different (if at all?)?

Don King steals Tyson anyway. it was a Black thing, and King knew how to play it.

I don't think it would happen if Cus were alive.... It's a blood thing... D'Amato was like his father and he did as he asked.

However it's possible... Patterson gave D'Amato the heave ho.... Patterson was more headstrong than people knew... If you're the 2-time Heavyweight Champion, and somebody remands you for being late (or whatever you did wrong) and gives you the wisdom of the day for the 900th time -- it's only a matter of time until you tell him where to stick it...

If Jack Dempsey could break with Doc Kearns---the guy made him---it could happen to anybody.