BoxRec

So gearing up to the eventual superfight (which will happen) between Joshua and Wilder for heavyweight supremacy, i thought maybe we should compare Joshua ( the more rounded of the two ) to some of the past great HW. And seeing as AJ is a straight forward fighter with good IQ, brawling style and KO power, maybe we could put him up against Sonny Liston, a solid HW for his time. But im just curious as how this would go down........ and i would like to hear what you have to say........ one thing is for sure though...,,,, expect MASSIVE punches to go.......

Anthony Joshua is too big, tall, strong, fast, and powerful.... See Buster Douglas v Mike Tyson... Even bigger advantages

AJ's jab is too accurate and fast... Right hand counter too quick and well timed... Combinations too brutal and sustained

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 16:47 Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

Opponents survived against Liston 15 X.... NOBODY survived against Joshua... Liston's KO ratio was 72%... Joshua's is 100%.... Liston fought little teeny tiny Heavyweights like Patterson, Martin (180 and survived), Machen (194 and survived) and other really little guys... AJ has frequently fought opponents weighing 240 to 250 -- and he got them all out.

Liston's reach wasn't 85" Where the HELL did you get that??? ... When I was a kid in the 1950's and '60's his reach was listed dozens of times as 81".... Which is an unreal for a man 6'1" People who wanted to hype his image sometimes said his reach was 84" .... I've NEVER heard 85 from anybody, but you... You like to take hype a step further than anyone else.

Liston would KO Joshua quickly

dr_devious wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 18:07 Liston would KO Joshua quickly

First he'd scare the poo out of him.

Joshua being scared by a 210 pound fighter who gets the shitt jabbed out of him is the funniest thing in the world.

AJ would jab the living crap out of him... Then blow him away with one thunderclapping right hand... Son's a little dude.

Povetkin is more skilled than Liston and bigger ...... You think he could do anything to Joshua??? .... Be honest.

Kalan wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 18:40 Joshua being scared by a 210 pound fighter who gets the shitt jabbed out of him is the funniest thing in the world.

AJ would jab the living crap out of him... Then blow him away with one thunderclapping right hand... Son's a little dude.

Povetkin is more skilled than Liston and bigger ...... You think he could do anything to Joshua??? .... Be honest.

Not talking Povetkin, talking Liston. I stick to my statement.

Well..... Many people thought Mike Tyson would scare the shitt out of Buster Douglas. When you look at the odds and how Douglas took care his career to that point he SHOULD have been scared... I thought he would be scared... He wasn't.

But with the power of hindsight, we understand why he wasn’t scared. He was bigger, taller, faster, longer, stronger, and more skilled.... He knew what he was doing in a boxing ring... If he showed up in perfect condition why should he be scared? If he neglected his training like he did with Holyfield, right….then he should be very concerned.

I agree that Liston was an intimidator who scared Patterson to death. It was Liston’s MO to scare people. “I tried to look tough to get the scare on the other guy. And the way some of those suckers fought, I guess they were scared.”

Martin, Breazeale, and Whyte tried hard to scare Joshua.. AJ looks so nice. Almost like an altar boy when he has a nice suit and perfectly knotted tie on. Some people take that as being soft. Like many thought De La Hoya was soft, and I actually think he was soft was well. But underneath a nice exterior can be a heart of steel and a sophisticated, rational thinker who runs his own show.

There is no way Joshua is going to be scared of anyone because there’s no reason to be. When Klitschko nailed him he didn’t waste energy on panic or being scared. Wilder is also unafraid. He was hurt real bad and every ounce of his energy was used to get past the crisis. I don’t think this is character. It’s something innate.

This would be a brutal knockout for Sonny it would end in 4 for AJ

It would be a 1st round KO for Joshua.... Sonny would take a nap like Dillian Whyte

Sonny was too short and small and too easy to hit with jabs... Plus he had pins for legs.

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Mar 2018, 21:41 It would be a 1st round KO for Joshua.... Sonny would take a nap like Dillian Whyte

Sonny was too short and small and too easy to hit with jabs... Plus he had pins for legs.

This latest comedy episode of "Everything you know is wrong" Series of Pugilistic Pontifications is brought to you by the National Lampoon, and Mad Magazine, in conjunction with Monty Python's flying Circus.


On the other hand, Ali laid him out in 1....so why not Joshua. And you have mentioned that you thought Liston was a good boxer, but in this scenario he can't last one round?


Don't get me wrong....I like the eclectic.....so I'm entertained. By the way....I do think Joshua would have a chance....might even win......but Sonny being so overmatched that it's a farce? And your recent opining that James Toney runs total roughshod over Frazier? I love the lunatic fringe.....so I'm a fan. But I don't particularly agree with some of your analytics.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 14:32

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Mar 2018, 21:41 It would be a 1st round KO for Joshua.... Sonny would take a nap like Dillian Whyte

Sonny was too short and small and too easy to hit with jabs... Plus he had pins for legs.

On the other hand, Ali laid him out in 1....so why not Joshua. And you have mentioned that you thought Liston was a good boxer, but in this scenario he can't last one round?

Don't get me wrong....I like the eclectic.....so I'm entertained. By the way....I do think Joshua would have a chance....might even win......but Sonny being so overmatched that it's a farce? And your recent opining that James Toney runs total roughshod over Frazier? I love the lunatic fringe.....so I'm a fan. But I don't particularly agree with some of your analytics.

You like being entertained but you don't like to THINK!!!!

Patterson was a great fighter who beat everybody he ever fought before he met Sonny Liston... All 11 sportswriters and the crowd had Patterson beating Joey Maxim when Floyd weighed 168 in his 14th fight... Let's give him that win... And Patterson smashed Ingo out twice after giving up a straight right killer in their 1st fight... Patterson was a great Heavyweight.

But Patterson was too teeny tiny for Liston... I mean Sonny knocked Little Patterson bow legged twice ... and FAST!!!

Anthony Joshua has a much bigger size advantage over Liston....

And Joshua is a better boxer and puncher... Has more World Title Fights... Is a lot smarter... He isn't as easy to hit as Liston was.... He's faster, stronger, and trains harder..... he doesn't smoke cigarettes or screw a thousand babes like Liston.... He doesn't drink to the extent Liston did.... He doesn't let his left shoulder and biceps fly apart in mid-fight because he's not trained properly and only fought 3 rounds in 3 years like Liston.

And Joshua doesn't let anybody punk him by taking his Boxing License away for 3 years for doing nothing more than getting off the canvas without getting a count and resuming a fight everybody assumed was STILL ON... It seems that Liston was soft about letting people treat him like a piece of shitt.... Maybe he was cowed by all those years in prison.

Now Joshua also had his innings with criminal activity and was able to finesse the system much better than Liston.... He's a little more clever and aligns himself with the right people.... Not the mob.... AJ didn't do hard time and got his career going a lot faster and navigated it better.... Didn't get his jaw busted and stuff like Sonny did by a little guy

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:09

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 14:32

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Mar 2018, 21:41 It would be a 1st round KO for Joshua.... Sonny would take a nap like Dillian Whyte

Sonny was too short and small and too easy to hit with jabs... Plus he had pins for legs.

On the other hand, Ali laid him out in 1....so why not Joshua. And you have mentioned that you thought Liston was a good boxer, but in this scenario he can't last one round?

Don't get me wrong....I like the eclectic.....so I'm entertained. By the way....I do think Joshua would have a chance....might even win......but Sonny being so overmatched that it's a farce? And your recent opining that James Toney runs total roughshod over Frazier? I love the lunatic fringe.....so I'm a fan. But I don't particularly agree with some of your analytics.

You like being entertained but you don't like to THINK!!!!

Patterson was a great fighter who beat everybody he ever fought before he met Sonny Liston... All 11 sportswriters and the crowd had Patterson beating Joey Maxim when Floyd weighed 168 in his 14th fight... Let's give him that win... And Patterson smashed Ingo out twice after giving up a straight right killer in their 1st fight... Patterson was a great Heavyweight.

But Patterson was too teeny tiny for Liston... I mean Sonny knocked Little Patterson bow legged twice.

Anthony Joshua has a much bigger size advantage over Liston....

And Joshua is a better boxer and puncher... Has more World Title Fights... Is a lot smarter... He isn't as easy to hit as Liston was.... He's faster, stronger, and trains harder..... he doesn't smoke cigarettes or screw a thousand babes like Liston.... He doesn't drink to the extent Liston did.... He doesn't let his left shoulder and biceps fly apart in mid-fight because he's not trained properly and only fought 3 rounds in 3 years like Liston.

And Joshua doesn't let anybody punk him by taking his Boxing License away for 3 years for doing nothing more than getting off the canvas without getting a count and resuming a fight everybody assumed was STILL ON... It seems that Liston was soft about letting people treat him like a piece of shitt.... Maybe he was cowed by all those years in prison.

Now Joshua also had his innings with criminal activity and was able to finesse the system much better than Liston.... He's a little more clever and aligns himself with the right people.... Not the mob.... AJ didn't do hard time and got his career going a lot faster and navigated it better.... Didn't get his jaw busted and stuff like Sonny did by a little guy

You are really in love aren't you...?

You are.... Obviously with me… You keep stalking me without posting anything remotely aligned to the subject.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:15 You are.... Obviously with me… You keep stalking me without posting anything remotely aligned to the subject.

That is a lie and you know it...I'm not surprised you're a liar too.

If you can't be civil stop stalking me jackass... FO and stay away... You have nothing relevant to say.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:27 If you can't be civil stop stalking me jackass... FO and stay away... You have nothing relevant to say.

You are posting on threads I'm in. Don't say anything stupid and nasty, and I'll stop directing at you.

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:36

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:27 If you can't be civil stop stalking me jackass... FO and stay away... You have nothing relevant to say.

You are posting on threads I'm in. Don't say anything stupid and nasty, and I'll stop directing at you.

You've got a dead solid lock on stupid and nasty.... I'm only replying in kind but not unthoughtfully... You know damned well you go off topic to direct insulting comments at me... And if you have nothing relevant to say... just blow out of here.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:36

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:27 If you can't be civil stop stalking me jackass... FO and stay away... You have nothing relevant to say.

You are posting on threads I'm in. Don't say anything stupid and nasty, and I'll stop directing at you.

You've got a dead solid lock on stupid and nasty.... I'm only replying in kind but not unthoughtfully... You know damned well you go off topic to direct insulting comments at me... And if you have nothing relevant to say... just blow out of here.

I've already posted my relevant thoughts there. Liston in a blowout!

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:51

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Mar 2018, 15:36

You are posting on threads I'm in. Don't say anything stupid and nasty, and I'll stop directing at you.

You've got a dead solid lock on stupid and nasty.... I'm only replying in kind but not unthoughtfully... You know damned well you go off topic to direct insulting comments at me... And if you have nothing relevant to say... just blow out of here.

I've already posted my relevant thoughts there. Liston in a blowout!

There should be reasons behind such opinions... Liston didn't have as many World Championship Fights and he only won 2 of the ones he had... Liston was stopped 2 times (once legitimately) and Joshua has never been stopped... Liston suffered losses to 2 guys who weighed well under 200 pounds... Embarrassing!!!! Joshua NEVER suffered a loss.

Liston spent years in prison which negatively affected his career... Joshua didn't do that so his career was better launched from the start -- particulary since he was an Olympic Gold Medal winner... Liston was penalized and held back.

The next place you look are their skills... Joshua has a more solid stance with better balance.... better feet and better, quicker footwork.... faster, rangier, and more accurate jab though that's the closest skill... quicker and more accurate right counter... faster, sharper, and more accurate combinations and a stronger defense -- all in AJ's favor.

Than look at size... Joshua has big edges in height, weight, and strength... When you have 2 big punchers like Foreman-Frazier, people tend to dismiss size -- so Frazier was installed as a big favorite when that was silly... People were shocked and amazed when they shouldn't have been.. The bigger and stronger bomber won....WTF dya expect??

Then you have demeanor... Liston seemed to be cowed at times - maybe because of his years in prison where he had to bow and scrape to authority... Ali used this tendency against Sonny... Joshua basically told Breazeale, Whyte, and Martin where to stick it when they tried to intimidate and scare him... Wladimir tried to fix Joshua with the cold icy stare of an assassin... AJ almost broke out laughing, almost like saying, "Come on Wlad.. You know you're not angry at me and we're buds." But he had no trouble turning cold blooded killer because Klitschko was just another guy in his way.

I think Liston's size puts him at a huge disadvatage. The big heavyweights have improved greatly to the point where Liston sized heavyweights can no longer compete at the top level. In the last 20+ years the best heavyweight in the world has consistently been far bigger than Liston. The fact that Liston sized heavies have not been able to reach the top for 25 years+ seems like pretty compelling evidence that he would have a lot of trouble today.

Sonny Liston is barely bigger than today's cruiserweights wouldn't it be more fare to match him against Usyk or Gassiev?

Kalan wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 17:40

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑24 Mar 2018, 16:47 Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

Opponents survived against Liston 15 X.... NOBODY survived against Joshua... Liston's KO ratio was 72%... Joshua's is 100%.... Liston fought little teeny tiny Heavyweights like Patterson, Martin (180 and survived), Machen (194 and survived) and other really little guys... AJ has frequently fought opponents weighing 240 to 250 -- and he got them all out.

Liston's reach wasn't 85" Where the HELL did you get that??? ... When I was a kid in the 1950's and '60's his reach was listed dozens of times as 81".... Which is an unreal for a man 6'1" People who wanted to hype his image sometimes said his reach was 84" .... I've NEVER heard 85 from anybody, but you... You like to take hype a step further than anyone else.

Joshua's KO rate ain't gonna stay 100%...you realize that right? Sometime in his next 4 fights somebody is either gonna beat him or last the distance with him.

And that's not even an insult to him. I like AJ. But there's always somebody that can hang with you and last the distance. No matter how hard you hit.

Well, Parker could well last the distance... He's got a great chin and absorbed a lot of big shots from Takam... Wilder has tremendous recuperative powers and savage punching power... But Ortiz let him off the hook. He had him... The old timer just couldn't crank it up anymore sufficiently to polish off his running, grabbing, and referee protected opponent...

Povetkin has never been stopped and survived 4 knockdowns versus Klitschko, which were the only times in his amateur and pro careers he was down... Andy Ruiz seems to have a head made out of rubber... Takam made it to the 10th... Wladimir the 11th... So yeah... Somebody will probably bust the bubble and last the distance with Joshua, or beat him.

But that's not absolutely written in stone... It's entirely possible Joshua could knock everybody out for the rest of his career - because everybody can be knocked out or at least stopped on cuts or whatever... But right now his KO ratio is 100% and nobody else has ever accomplished that heading into his 6th Heavyweight Championship Fight.