BoxRec

A nice clear view of the phantom punch. Best I have encountered. Of course it is Liston behavior once on the canvas that is in question. But certainly a cleanly landed punch.

Back then, to my generation this was as frustrating as watching the the Zapruder film, a scratchy TV image we couldn't discern, thus the name.

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 17:15 A nice clear view of the phantom punch. Best I have encountered. Of course it is Liston behavior once on the canvas that is in question. But certainly a cleanly landed punch.

Back then, to my generation this was as frustrating as watching the the Zapruder film, a scratchy TV image we couldn't discern, thus the name.

Liston's behavior WASN'T in question... He was SMART not to get up with Ali running around the ring like an out-of-control MAD MAN... Nobody was counting over Liston and he assumed the neutral corner rule was in effect...

Ali could had been disqualified for defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner... At least Dempsey obeyed the referee's order in 4 seconds flat... Ali never obeyed Walcott... A DQ for Ali was appropriate.

Or at least a continuation of the fight.... Liston obeyed the rules... Ali DIDN'T... The result was corrupt. A stain on Boxing.

Yes yes yes.....alright Kalan, you can sit down now....we've all seen your nice new tie.

Find something else to do with your time beside making condescending, ignorant, snide, personal remarks.

Read the post and address the facts -- or shut it.

Kalan wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 20:09

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 17:15 A nice clear view of the phantom punch. Best I have encountered. Of course it is Liston behavior once on the canvas that is in question. But certainly a cleanly landed punch.

Back then, to my generation this was as frustrating as watching the the Zapruder film, a scratchy TV image we couldn't discern, thus the name.

Liston's behavior WASN'T in question... He was SMART not to get up with Ali running around the ring like an out-of-control MAD MAN... Nobody was counting over Liston and he assumed the neutral corner rule was in effect...

Ali could had been disqualified for defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner... At least Dempsey obeyed the referee's order in 4 seconds flat... Ali never obeyed Walcott... A DQ for Ali was appropriate.

Or at least a continuation of the fight.... Liston obeyed the rules... Ali DIDN'T... The result was corrupt. A stain on Boxing.

It is sad because the whole thing should have been a flash knockdown. The punch no doubt landed, but Liston went down because of his momentum. Without Ali's antics Liston would have been up at four and fight continued.

The way it went down, I agree with you, the fight should have continued, only the ref should be able to count out a fighter. It should have been another 'long count' controversy with the fight continuing.

But I can't shake the feeling that Liston was in the process of pulling a Walcott-Marciano II (ironically) and was looking to lay down for his own reasons; walk away with a payday and tell 'the man' to F off.

Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

WHERE'S THE CONTROVERSY???? WHAAA DA FK??

Ali DEFIED the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and ran around the ring... Walcott FAILED to suspend the count in accordance with the neutral corner rule... Walcott NEVER gave Liston a count because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner... Instead of calling TIME cuz Nat Fleischer was screaming at him, Walcott walks over to Fleischer.... Liston and Ali resume fighting without supervision .... Ali attacks and misses a bunch of followup punches, proving Liston's refexes are intact and he could easily've continued... Walcott, Ali, and Liston all thought the fight was still on because there was no count.

If The count was paused according to the rules Ali would have either been disqualified or the fight would have continued... Liston didn't break a single rule... Ali Did... Walcott never looked at the rule book and neither did Nat Fleischer who WASN'T an official and had NO BUSINESS interjecting himself into the officiating of the fight... Walcott was smart enough to know that, but he was just so discombobulated and fuzzy he messed up royally.

Instead of setting things right -- the Boxing Commission made ex-con Liston the fall guy... Their actions were criminal.

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:03 But I can't shake the feeling that Liston was in the process of pulling a Walcott-Marciano II (ironically) and was looking to lay down for his own reasons; walk away with a payday and tell 'the man' to F off.

Liston wouldn't have done that in a million years... He valued the title and a victory over "Clay" too much... But I understand your feeling... Liston was an ex-con and it's easy to attribute sinister motives to him and blame him for everything... Liston got up and resumed fighting.. There's no way in HELL he does that unless he intends to win.

But the Boxing Commission did what they did to save face... Liston was a bad ass so he would always be the bad guy... Despite Liston's boxing license being suspended for years, he started fighting overseas with the intent of winning the Title back... He did extremely well and eventually got his license back in the United States... Age simply caught up with Liston.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

I am not sure how old you are so I hope I don't come across condescending. (I'm 63) Back in '65 we couldn't see the punch; TV had one camera, one angle, and it was a shitty B&W imagine. And then Liston's up and down behavior, it turned into a profound controversy. Too much about nothing. (Oh, you have to throw in the whole Black Power thing as well, that helped drive it too.)

This video below is absurd, (but makes the point) it is a Howard Cosell interview about the "controversy." A 30 minute program about nothing but the controversy. And we didn't have that many channels to choose from. You put anything on TV and you pretty much guaranteed to reach 1/3 of the population. Back then it was amazing how much influence a single TV interview could have.

If I may, It is worth a few minutes watch just to get the feel of what a 'big deal' we made it. Also there are great Dempsey and Marciano interviews at the end. Marciano speaks twice and both his comments are worth listening to; he makes the most insightful statements regarding the knockdown, (of all the 'expert' guests)

Definitely take a moment and look at the Marciano segment, I never knew he was so bright, I foolishly bought into his popular imagine as an 'ah shucks' type of guy. I must have a deep prejudice against Italians that I am unaware of.

Marciano speaks at 26.30 and then again at 29.15

Thanks for listening - Anthony

Kalan wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 23:57But I understand your feeling... Liston was an ex-con and it's easy to attribute sinister motives to him and blame him for everything . . .

Please don't think I think that of him.

I do think that he was a black fighter who felt he had been exploited.

Kalan,

I am going to throw something out to you that might touch the third rail of racism but . . . you can call me on it if you think so.

This is the opinion of some writer for one of the boxing rags, back in the eighties.

The comment he made was that all black fighters (American) are an enigma, you never know who is going to enter the ring on any given night. (Remember this is about Black fighters of the 60s through the 80s.) -- He expounded on this by suggesting that Black fighters still find themselves functioning in a White dominated exploitative business and at times turn in sub-par performances as a passive aggressive retaliation. Fighters like Douglas and Tyson come to mind quick.

In contrast the writer then mentions, of course, the consistency of Hispanic fighters as being the most predicable/consistent.

Does that sound racist?

Anyway this has been in my head for 40 years now, and I always wondered about Walcott-Marciano II. I wonder if Walcott wasn't just flipping everyone off (who ever abused him in the business; he was never a protected fighter and often exploited.)

Odd fact: Did you know he, Walcott, demanded and got more money than Marciano for the rematch. There is a belief that Marciano never forgave Al Weill for that.

Same thing happened to Bramble, he was, as champion, forced to take parity with Mancini for their rematch. He never forgave the Duvas for that; here again another Black fighter getting screwed because of his opponent's skin color. (Bramble retaliated by jumping over to Don King.)

Anyway, that's the all of it as to why it goes through my head when I watch Liston on the canvas. But I don't claim it to be the thing that happened.

OK, I'm rambling, sorry.

P.S. Watch the Marciano interview I mentioned in the above post. I know you're not a big fan of his, but he is impressive to listen to.

APerno wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 00:50

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

I am not sure how old you are so I hope I don't come across condescending. (I'm 63) Back in '65 we couldn't see the punch; TV had one camera, one angle, and it was a shitty B&W imagine. And then Liston's up and down behavior, it turned into a profound controversy. Too much about nothing. (Oh, you have to throw in the whole Black Power thing as well, that helped drive it too.)

This video below is absurd, (but makes the point) it is a Howard Cosell interview about the "controversy." A 30 minute program about nothing but the controversy. And we didn't have that many channels to choose from. You put anything on TV and you pretty much guaranteed to reach 1/3 of the population. Back then it was amazing how much influence a single TV interview could have.

If I may, It is worth a few minutes watch just to get the feel of what a 'big deal' we made it. Also there are great Dempsey and Marciano interviews at the end. Marciano speaks twice and both his comments are worth listening to; he makes the most insightful statements regarding the knockdown, (of all the 'expert' guests)

Definitely take a moment and look at the Marciano segment, I never knew he was so bright, I foolishly bought into his popular imagine as an 'ah shucks' type of guy. I must have a deep prejudice against Italians that I am unaware of.

Marciano speaks at 26.30 and then again at 29.15

Thanks for listening - Anthony

APerno You're INCREDIBLE!!!! This ends the controversy... Ruby Goldstein and Howard Cosell BOTH said JOE WALCOTT screwed Liston ROYALLY... Go to 23:00 of THIS video... For the next 40 seconds to 23:40 Ruby Goldstein explains why the fight was NOT OVER... The neutral corner rule dictates you tell the time keeper to stop the count until the boxer scoring the knockdown goes to a neutral corner which Ali never did..

Questions: ... WHY ISN'T THIS COMMON KNOWLEDGE IN BOXING HISTORY??? ... WHY DIDN'T LISTON GET HIS LICENSE BACK??? ... WHY WEREN'T THERE FAIR HEARINGS AND REVIEWS THAT EXONERATED LISTON??? ... I've never figured ANY of that out.

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:03

Kalan wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 20:09

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 17:15 A nice clear view of the phantom punch. Best I have encountered. Of course it is Liston behavior once on the canvas that is in question. But certainly a cleanly landed punch.

Back then, to my generation this was as frustrating as watching the the Zapruder film, a scratchy TV image we couldn't discern, thus the name.

Liston's behavior WASN'T in question... He was SMART not to get up with Ali running around the ring like an out-of-control MAD MAN... Nobody was counting over Liston and he assumed the neutral corner rule was in effect...

Ali could had been disqualified for defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner... At least Dempsey obeyed the referee's order in 4 seconds flat... Ali never obeyed Walcott... A DQ for Ali was appropriate.

Or at least a continuation of the fight.... Liston obeyed the rules... Ali DIDN'T... The result was corrupt. A stain on Boxing.

It is sad because the whole thing should have been a flash knockdown. The punch no doubt landed, but Liston went down because of his momentum. Without Ali's antics Liston would have been up at four and fight continued.

The way it went down, I agree with you, the fight should have continued, only the ref should be able to count out a fighter. It should have been another 'long count' controversy with the fight continuing.

But I can't shake the feeling that Liston was in the process of pulling a Walcott-Marciano II (ironically) and was looking to lay down for his own reasons; walk away with a payday and tell 'the man' to F off.

Al Perno- Pretty much agree with that. The punch did land. Liston did seem to not want to continue. What really seemed fake was him rolling around on the ground.
Also never understood why Liston did not protest the fight.

Kalan wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 01:35

APerno wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 00:50

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

I am not sure how old you are so I hope I don't come across condescending. (I'm 63) Back in '65 we couldn't see the punch; TV had one camera, one angle, and it was a shitty B&W imagine. And then Liston's up and down behavior, it turned into a profound controversy. Too much about nothing. (Oh, you have to throw in the whole Black Power thing as well, that helped drive it too.)

This video below is absurd, (but makes the point) it is a Howard Cosell interview about the "controversy." A 30 minute program about nothing but the controversy. And we didn't have that many channels to choose from. You put anything on TV and you pretty much guaranteed to reach 1/3 of the population. Back then it was amazing how much influence a single TV interview could have.

If I may, It is worth a few minutes watch just to get the feel of what a 'big deal' we made it. Also there are great Dempsey and Marciano interviews at the end. Marciano speaks twice and both his comments are worth listening to; he makes the most insightful statements regarding the knockdown, (of all the 'expert' guests)

Definitely take a moment and look at the Marciano segment, I never knew he was so bright, I foolishly bought into his popular imagine as an 'ah shucks' type of guy. I must have a deep prejudice against Italians that I am unaware of.

Marciano speaks at 26.30 and then again at 29.15

Thanks for listening - Anthony

APerno You're INCREDIBLE!!!! This ends the controversy... Ruby Goldstein and Howard Cosell BOTH said JOE WALCOTT screwed Liston ROYALLY... Go to 23:00 of THIS video... For the next 40 seconds to 23:40 Ruby Goldstein explains why the fight was NOT OVER... The neutral corner rule dictates you tell the time keeper to stop the count until the boxer scoring the knockdown goes to a neutral corner which Ali never did..

Questions: ... WHY ISN'T THIS COMMON KNOWLEDGE IN BOXING HISTORY??? ... WHY DIDN'T LISTON GET HIS LICENSE BACK??? ... WHY WEREN'T THERE FAIR HEARINGS AND REVIEWS THAT EXONERATED LISTON??? ... I've never figured ANY of that out.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 11:10 Liston did seem to not want to continue. What really seemed fake was him rolling around on the ground.
Also never understood why Liston did not protest the fight.

That's really dumb.... That's blaming the victim of this mess like the commission did.

Liston DID PROTEST the way the fight was handled... He was a very quiet, unassuming man... But he immediately told reporters he could have gotten up right away if he heard the count, but he didn't hear any count. He saw Ali running towards him from behind when he was on 1 knee. "I would have to put one hand on the floor to get up and Clay could hit me. He was supposed to be in a neutral corner for the referee to start counting."

NOBODY heard a count. Ali ran all over the ring and didn't hear it... Walcott ventured closer to the timekeeper than Liston, trying to control Ali.. Walcott didn't hear the count... Walcott, Ali, and Liston ALL thought the fight was still ON!!!

It's nuts to think a man who gets up from a knockdown (when it's safe. Ali STILL wasn't in a neutral corner) and squares off to fight... and defends himself well by ducking and slipping punches wants to quit... His legs weren't shaky from the knockdown punch... His reflexes were intact... Go to 23:00 of this video to 23:40 of Cosell's interview with HOF referee Ruby Goldstein and they both blame WALCOTT for the debacle... Walcott, Fleischer, and the timekeeper were the 3 people most responsibe for Liston getting a screw job.

How much distance should the ref (Mark Cohen)have given Ali and Bonavena just after the knockdowns here ?
(BTW the ref had Ali ahead 12-2 rounds going into the 15th round.)

APerno wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 17:15 A nice clear view of the phantom punch. Best I have encountered. Of course it is Liston behavior once on the canvas that is in question. But certainly a cleanly landed punch.

Back then, to my generation this was as frustrating as watching the the Zapruder film, a scratchy TV image we couldn't discern, thus the name.

Liston's body shakes like a tuning-fork the nano-second when that punch landed.
Check out how his muscles quiver just below his right scapula when the punch lands.
( something one couldn't really see in less HD footage).

btw the Zepruder footage was not seen by the American public until March 1975 when someone snuck a copy of it out and it was shown on
GOOD NIGHT AMERICA (I remember watching that show when it was on at night-live!)

Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 16:10 Liston's body shakes like a tuning-fork the nano-second when that punch landed.
Check out how his muscles quiver just below his right scapula when the punch lands.

There is NO tuning fork going on... People are trying to REINVENT the Phantom Punch as a devastating punch... It's a sharp punch that surprised Liston, NOT a devastating punch... Liston did not fall directly to the floor. He braced him self a couple of steps on his gloves... then his elbow... then rolled gently over on his back.. There was NO head bounce. The reason Sonny didn't get up the 1st time he got on bended knee was Ali was running at him from behind and acting like a mad man... NO ONE was counting over him because Ali defied Walcott's order to go to a neutral corner... The neutral corner rule WAS in effect.

Also... Liston easily slipped every follow up punch Ali threw.... Go to 22:30 of "Muhammad Ali vs Sonny Liston May 25th 1965" the 4th video above this post -- and listen to for the next 1:10 to Howard Cosell and HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explaining why Walcott had NO BUSINESS stopping the fight and made a horrific mistake.

I

Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 16:14 btw the Zepruder footage was not seen by the American public until March 1975

Yes, but back at the time ('63) we got, in the newspapers, these (very) blurry still shots taken from the film, several panels in a comic strip format; like idiots we were trying to look at them with magnifying glass. At the time everyone was claiming that the government deliberately blurred the film, of course today we know Zepruder was shaking the camera, but then we didn't know that. Then we eventually got to see the blurry film itself (you say '75; that may be after the Congressional conspiracy re-investigation in the '70s) and then finally we got the computer enhanced/corrected film that you see today.

But anyway I is just my memories, not necessarily correct either.

I don't know why we're not talking about the phantom punch...

It seems the truth bores people because it reflects on the injustice done to Liston.... and the transgressions of Ali...

APerno wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 19:59

Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 16:14 btw the Zepruder footage was not seen by the American public until March 1975

Yes, but back at the time ('63) we got, in the newspapers, these (very) blurry still shots taken from the film, several panels in a comic strip format; like idiots we were trying to look at them with magnifying glass. At the time everyone was claiming that the government deliberately blurred the film, of course today we know Zepruder was shaking the camera, but then we didn't know that. Then we eventually got to see the blurry film itself (you say '75; that may be after the Congressional conspiracy re-investigation in the '70s) and then finally we got the computer enhanced/corrected film that you see today.

But anyway I is just my memories, not necessarily correct either.

well,I was still only 14 in March 1975.
I think that was the first time the footage was shown on "Network Television".

If you can't see Liston's body shudder at that punch, then you have an agenda other than a simple "discovery process".

Kalan a lot of what you say is pretty relevant and accurate....but to discount the actual forensic nature of that punch reveals something other than any real search for facts. That punch was rather clinically impactful.

The rest of the crap was just as easy to see as the impactful nature of that punch.....yet you only see what you wish to see I guess.

Lot's of examples of clumsiness in the wake of a good shot....Zora Folley, Trevor Berbick, Zab Judah.....this is just another example.

Some people want to address, bear witness, and validate only the information favorable to their spin. Others are purely curious and will allow the facts to lead them wherever the facts happen to take the observer. Which one are you?

Dont' take it personal....it Takes all kinds. Diversity! It's a good thing.

A reporter came up with his own disparaging term for a fictitious punch and the Phantom Punch was born…

The term was picked up by haters. Haters of Liston. Haters of Ali. Haters of Boxing. There was a mountain of evidence that the punch was real, Liston was legitimately knocked down, and the fight should have continued – a lot of people didn’t want to hear it and didn’t want to believe it.

To this day people think the punch couldn’t have squashed a grape... They think Liston was in with gamblers and the mafia, and are deaf, dumb, and blind to the evidence -- because people don't want to be confused with the facts.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 23:49 If you can't see Liston's body shudder at that punch, then you have an agenda other than a simple "discovery process".

BuzzBox, the only thing you could discover is somebody pissed on a rug if you watched him do it...

There's 3 things you can take from watching that punch... It was a good fast punch that connected well... It surprised Liston... Liston went down for the same reason Marciano went down from Archie Moore's punch... His forward momentum knocked him off balance, he missed a step when he got hit, and stumbled to the floor... He went down bracing on his gloves first... then his elbow... then he went down gently with no head bounce.

For comparison check Patterson dropping when Liston smashed him.

Liston got up without problems and resumed the fight, ducking and slipping all of Ali's followup punches... According to the neutral corner rule he got up in plenty of time because the count should have been suspended.

The truth is all over the Internet… Listen to Howard Cosell and HOF referee Ruby Goldstein putting the blame on Ali (who didn’t go to a neutral corner) and Walcott (who forgot the neutral corner rule).... Go to 23:34 of this video and listen for 2 minutes. Let's see if you have an honest take on what actually happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLc6XkgbW2A

Kalan wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 23:45

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

WHERE'S THE CONTROVERSY???? WHAAA DA FK??

Ali DEFIED the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and ran around the ring... Walcott FAILED to suspend the count in accordance with the neutral corner rule... Walcott NEVER gave Liston a count because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner... Instead of calling TIME cuz Nat Fleischer was screaming at him, Walcott walks over to Fleischer.... Liston and Ali resume fighting without supervision .... Ali attacks and misses a bunch of followup punches, proving Liston's refexes are intact and he could easily've continued... Walcott, Ali, and Liston all thought the fight was still on because there was no count.

If The count was paused according to the rules Ali would have either been disqualified or the fight would have continued... Liston didn't break a single rule... Ali Did... Walcott never looked at the rule book and neither did Nat Fleischer who WASN'T an official and had NO BUSINESS interjecting himself into the officiating of the fight... Walcott was smart enough to know that, but he was just so discombobulated and fuzzy he messed up royally.

Instead of setting things right -- the Boxing Commission made ex-con Liston the fall guy... Their actions were criminal.

Yeah, Yeah, Kalan. We know all about Nat Fleischer, Joe Walcott's ineptness, Liston tumbling, Ali running around the ring.

But here's the initial controversy about some sort of phantom punch. It clearly landed, a nice right hand shot that Liston pretty much moved right into.

In 1965, they didn't have 5 million camera angles when televising a fight.

If they did, we would have seen that so-called phantom punch so clearly that no one would have ever tried to dispute and distort its effect.

But trying to create a murky conspiracy and brand a fight as a "fraud" is much more entertaining, I suppose. Even after more than 50 years.

"Controversy is good for the game." Angelo Dundee