BoxRec

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 19:53**

119 years ago

When I read things like this, it makes me rethink Clay-Liston I, it makes me think: "yea, they probably did try to blind the kid," Why not? Liston was getting desperate and he came from the game's shadows. They just went to an old, time tested move, blind your opponent.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 20:09**

I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 20:56**

Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:09 I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.

Machen never said that... He said he wasn't busy enough and let Liston walk away with the decision.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 20:59**

BoxRec has a piece on it under "notes'

From BoxRec

Machen later said he believed that Liston's handlers made deliberate use of illegal medication in an attempt to temporarily blind him during the fight. He theorized that Liston's handlers rubbed medication on their fighter's shoulders, which was transferred to Machen's forehead during clinches and dripped into his eyes. "I thought my eyes would burn out of my head, and Liston seemed to know it would happen," Machen said. When Liston fought Muhammad Ali . . . "Clay panicked. I didn't do that. I'm more of a seasoned pro, and I hid it from Liston."

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Sonny ... die_Machen

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:01**

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:56
Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:09 I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.
Machen never said that... He said he wasn't busy enough and let Liston walk away with the decision.

Granted, Machen never said it until two days after Clay-Liston I which qualifies his validity.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:06**

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:56
Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:09 I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.
Machen never said that... He said he wasn't busy enough and let Liston walk away with the decision.

In a NY Times article Liston complained Machen ran all night and was very frustrated with his own performance. Officially he won every round except the 11th, which he lost on a low blow (which put Machen down.)

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:11**

Exactly... Machen was one of those guys who had an excuse for every loss... If your opponent in rubbing something in your eyes "and burning my eyes out of my head" you tell the referee... You tell reporters... Liston's shoulders are swabbed and you get to the bottom of it... A fighter would lose his license for that... You don't "keep it hidden" like a true Spartan.

During the Clay fight, the referee rubbed Liston's gloves in his own eyes and said there was nothing on them.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:13**

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:56
Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:09 I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.
Machen never said that... He said he wasn't busy enough and let Liston walk away with the decision.

One of the pre-fight articles has an expert predicting that "Machen has a good chance if he can take Liston into the later rounds." -- LOL -- How often have we heard that, and how often is the reality, 'come the later rounds' the guy is still running. That what it sounds like Machen did most of the night.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:15**

Liston was the best Heavyweight in the world for a number of years... I have no doubt about that... He needed to put agents into opponents' eyes like Usain Bolt needs rocket powered track shoes.

Posted: **16 Apr 2018, 21:24**

I agree he was, it took a very young talented fighter to beat him; But I also think there is a good chance he (his corner) cheated more than once over the years. In fact I would say, if at the end (Clay-Liston I) his corner didn't try to cheat they weren't the men they claimed to be.

Posted: **17 Apr 2018, 18:13**

Liston never cheated and there's no evidence he ever cheated -- just innuendo, accusations and fabrications with nothing solid to back them up.

The evidence that Ali enjoyed favoritism with the referees, boxing commissioners, and officials in general – and cheated like an SOB is there for ALL to see... Ali threw out the rule book and cheated like a living bastard in more than one fight...

Irrefutably!!!! .... There isn't even a valid argument that Ali didn't get away with murder.

Posted: **17 Apr 2018, 18:20**

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:56
Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Apr 2018, 20:09 I think Eddie Machen had said Liston(corner) had tried the same thing on him earlier.
Machen never said that... He said he wasn't busy enough and let Liston walk away with the decision.

well his corner had said it anyway after Cassius Clay had claimed it after the Liston fight.
about Machen's eyes starting to burn when he had Liston on the go.

Posted: **17 Apr 2018, 18:22**

Kalan wrote: ↑17 Apr 2018, 18:13 Liston never cheated and there's no evidence he ever cheated -- just innuendo, accusations and fabrications with nothing solid to back them up.

The evidence that Ali enjoyed favoritism with the referees, boxing commissioners, and officials in general – and cheated like an SOB is there for ALL to see... Ali threw out the rule book and cheated like a living bastard in more than one fight...

Irrefutably!!!! .... There isn't even a valid argument that Ali didn't get away with murder.

Well who said Liston cheated ? I think the cast was placed on Joe Polino

Posted: **17 Apr 2018, 18:31**

Kalan wrote: ↑17 Apr 2018, 18:13 Liston never cheated and there's no evidence he ever cheated -- just innuendo, accusations and fabrications with nothing solid to back them up.

The evidence that Ali enjoyed favoritism with the referees, boxing commissioners, and officials in general – and cheated like an SOB is there for ALL to see... Ali threw out the rule book and cheated like a living bastard in more than one fight...

Irrefutably!!!! .... There isn't even a valid argument that Ali didn't get away with murder.

Murder? This I would like to hear.

Posted: **17 Apr 2018, 19:32**

There’re many instances where Ali figuratively got away with murder .... when he threw out the rule book.

NOBODY else was ever declared a full-count KO winner after he refused to go to a neutral corner for the full count... Not since the neutral corner rule went into effect in the 20’s, almost a hundred years ago.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER was ever allowed to grab and hold 20 times in a round, wrestling, holding, and pushing his opponent’s head down throughout the round as Ali did in the 1st round with Foreman.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER refused to produce a urine sample for over 24 hours following a World Title Fight – as Ali did following the Foreman fight.

NOBODY else was ever allowed to walk straight through the referee when he was supposed to be in a neutral corner – as the referee was trying to enforce the neutral corner rule and administer an unmolested 8-count – even hacking the referee’s arm away when the referee put a hand on him to try to enforce the rule .... as Ali did in the Bonavena fight.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 00:51**

I feel like Kalan is backing Liston just to provide extra support for Joshua, whom he picked in a different thread to annihilate Liston.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 01:58**

Kalan wrote: ↑17 Apr 2018, 19:32 There’re many instances where Ali figuratively got away with murder .... when he threw out the rule book.

NOBODY else was ever declared a full-count KO winner after he refused to go to a neutral corner for the full count... Not since the neutral corner rule went into effect in the 20’s, almost a hundred years ago.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER was ever allowed to grab and hold 20 times in a round, wrestling, holding, and pushing his opponent’s head down throughout the round as Ali did in the 1st round with Foreman.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER refused to produce a urine sample for over 24 hours following a World Title Fight – as Ali did following the Foreman fight.

NOBODY else was ever allowed to walk straight through the referee when he was supposed to be in a neutral corner – as the referee was trying to enforce the neutral corner rule and administer an unmolested 8-count – even hacking the referee’s arm away when the referee put a hand on him to try to enforce the rule .... as Ali did in the Bonavena fight.

I am curious about one statement. Who in Zaire would have wanted Ali's urine?

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 12:48**

APerno wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 01:58
Kalan wrote: ↑17 Apr 2018, 19:32 There’re many instances where Ali figuratively got away with murder .... when he threw out the rule book.

NOBODY else was ever declared a full-count KO winner after he refused to go to a neutral corner for the full count... Not since the neutral corner rule went into effect in the 20’s, almost a hundred years ago.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER was ever allowed to grab and hold 20 times in a round, wrestling, holding, and pushing his opponent’s head down throughout the round as Ali did in the 1st round with Foreman.

NO OTHER WORLD CHAMPION OR CHALLENGER refused to produce a urine sample for over 24 hours following a World Title Fight – as Ali did following the Foreman fight.

NOBODY else was ever allowed to walk straight through the referee when he was supposed to be in a neutral corner – as the referee was trying to enforce the neutral corner rule and administer an unmolested 8-count – even hacking the referee’s arm away when the referee put a hand on him to try to enforce the rule .... as Ali did in the Bonavena fight.
I am curious about one statement. Who in Zaire would have wanted Ali's urine?

You can't do a PED test without a sample. Ali's excuse in his autobiography was he was so dried out he couldn't pee... And when they kept coming back the next day he still couldn't pee... It's another incidence of a super arrogant individual who believed the rules are for everybody else to follow. He's so superior the rules are beneath him. Like Trump never releasing his tax returns and acting like a high and mighty prick.

I don't believe in Karma as it's presented in Hinduism, but I believe in “Just Deserts”

Events are visited on the arrogant. Whosoever exults himself shall be humbled... Whosoever humbles himself shall be exulted.. Whoever puts himself 1st shall be last -- and the last shall be first. I didn't like Ali taking beatings and getting hurt. But these things seem to happen.

That is why Trump’s rotten behavior doesn’t bother me too much.... I know he’ll get his.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 13:29**

Whatever Ali or any other fighter gets away with in the ring is the fault of the referee. Why would you stop having that advantage if the ref is allowing it? Seriously. I'm saying it's right to hold and such, but I'm sure most fighters wouldn't stop on their own until they were stopped. Leaning; holding; holding and hitting; pushing down on the neck, etc.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 14:09**

Do you cheat on your wife or girlfriend because you're out-of-town and she's never going to learn about it???

I'm sure you don't... And if you own the referee is that a good thing??? ... NO it's corruption.

If you own a business - do you cheat your customers, just because you can easily get away with it with some of the chumps out there???.... I'm sure you don't do that... Do you lie on your tax forms, just because you could easily get away with it and save yourself thousands of dollars???.... I'm sure you don't...

You have to live with yourself if you don't follow the rules... Your life will be in turmoil to a certain degree... A clear conscience is worth more than the snidely and snickering pleasure of taking advantage of trusting human beings...

I often wonder what would have became of me if I went to Viet Nam and started killing people out of a sense of intimidation that you can feel from superior officers... I've seen a lot of soldiers with PTSD... That could have been me.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 14:14**

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 14:09 Do you cheat on your wife or girlfriend because you're out-of-town and she's never going to learn about it???

I'm sure you don't... And if you own the referee is that a good thing??? ... NO it's corruption.

If you own a business - do you cheat your customers, just because you can easily get away with it with some of the chumps out there???.... I'm sure you don't do that... Do you lie on your tax forms, just because you could easily get away with it and save yourself thousands of dollars???.... I'm sure you don't...

You have to live with yourself if you don't follow rules... Your life will be in turmoil to a certain degree... A clear conscience is worth more than the snidely and snickering pleasure of taking advantage of trusting human beings...

I often wonder what would have became of me if I went to Viet Nam and started killing people out of a sense of intimidation that you can feel from superior officers... I've seen a lot of soldiers with PTSD... That could have been me.

I think you make it more complex than it is. Human nature is human nature. I have no evidence of owning referees, just human nature. And no...not every fighter will do that. Most are rules followers with respect for the sport.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 14:16**

Well thanks for acknowledging that.... Ali wasn't.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 15:18**

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:14
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 13:29 Whatever Ali or any other fighter gets away with in the ring is the fault of the referee. Why would you stop having that advantage if the ref is allowing it? Seriously. I'm saying it's right to hold and such, but I'm sure most fighters wouldn't stop on their own until they were stopped. Leaning; holding; holding and hitting; pushing down on the neck, etc.
Ali was no different to any other Heavyweight as far as rule bending is concerned, unless of course you have an anti Ali agenda, as is the case with Kolon.

Another fighter he has an agenda against is Tommy Hearns who the cretin believes could punch him all night with no effect, but just one of his would " kill " Tommy.

Tommy was a monster, pure and simple. Pure bomber who could also box. Questionable chin but like so many others, still an ATG. As far as Ali goes...his holding behind the head was the worst I've ever seen. But, he got away with it. There are other champs who bent the rules, including Joshua. I saw him hit while his opponent was down; hold and hit, etc. So you are right. I loved and LOVE Ali, but he sure got away more than anyone I've ever seen. I think he intimidated the refs. It's all part of the game!

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 15:29**

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:25
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:18
golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:14

Ali was no different to any other Heavyweight as far as rule bending is concerned, unless of course you have an anti Ali agenda, as is the case with Kolon.

Another fighter he has an agenda against is Tommy Hearns who the cretin believes could punch him all night with no effect, but just one of his would " kill " Tommy.
Tommy was a monster, pure and simple. Pure bomber who could also box. Questionable chin but like so many others, still an ATG. As far as Ali goes...his holding behind the head was the worst I've ever seen. But, he got away with it. There are other champs who bent the rules, including Joshua. I saw him hit while his opponent was down; hold and hit, etc. So you are right. I loved and LOVE Ali, but he sure got away more than anyone I've ever seen. I think he intimidated the refs. It's all part of the game!
I think it was a quite brilliant tactic. Left hand behind the neck, right hand pushing against the left shoulder, thus rendering the other guy off balance, and therefore unable to get any power into his shots. And he ALWAYS broke immediately the ref got in there, allowing him to keep the fight at a distance which suited him.

I'd say that showed great intelligence.

Like I said, so long as he got away with it. It was obvious and the ref's saw it, so why stop what's working? He used that when he came back from suspension. don't remember much of that during his prime years.

Posted: **18 Apr 2018, 15:45**

True.

Fighters didn't usually get close enough to the dancing Ali during the 60s to necessitate any holding or leaning.

But Ali was intelligent and adapted his game to his diminishing mobility.

I never saw it as a big deal. It was illegal but not dirty. Not in the sense that it was done to injure an opponent.

Fighters hold and tie up all the time. It's up the referee to take action.

Carlos Padilla did in Manila. Maybe that was bad for Frazier.

Instead of clinching, Ali was forced to keep punching and unload on Frazier.

You saw the end results.

BoxRec

If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.

Re: If Liston tried to blind Ali he wasn't doing something new.