BoxRec

Kalan, you stated in a thread, which is now locked, that “I’d like to know an opinion that I haven’t backed up with data and facts”. I am now going to give you a very clear example of one. It relates to you calling that very fine Welsh boxer, Jimmy Wilde, a fraud and a charlatan.

Let me therefore remind you of the debate that we had only last week in the topic P4P Best Welsh Boxer Ever? Wilde or Calzaghe.
You stated that “With Wilde and a few other charlatans, opponents were often solicited off the street and given phony names. They were introduced to the crowd with phony records. They were never heard from again after padding the record of their only opponent. Wilde was probably the worst record padder in Fistic History… He engaged in many fraudulent fights...

Wilde was in his 49th fight — more fights than Calzaghe fought in his entire career — before he beat somebody who had more than 1 victory who’d won most of his fights. That opponent was Billy Padden who was 2-0-1. Although Padden won 4 fights in his entire 13 fight career, he fought Jimmy Wilde 3 times. Wilde fought 2 more fights that month his 50th and 51st fights .... and both opponents were making their pro debut”.

In response I politely pointed out to you that “My own research shows that before the December 1912 contest between Wilde and Padden, Billy's record was 23 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws. In his entire career Billy had 58 contests and not just the 13 you have found for him on boxrec. I think that your claim that Wilde's record was padded with nobodies is based upon the records you are seeing on boxrec, which are very incomplete for the period that Wilde was active”.

To which you responded “His record was misrepresented as having 23 wins when he only had 4 wins in his whole career... In those days novices with no wins and making their 3rd start would be misrepresented when announced... "In this corner... from Corpus Christi Texas... with 23 wins, 18 by knockout and only 4 defeats... Jack Dillinger." That's if they were in Renton WA... If they were in Corpus Christi TX he'd be from Maine... I'm sure the same thing went on in England... If the records were there and verifiable -- boxrec.com would be able to access them. Bear in mind that was Wilde's 49th fight and the FIRST guy he beat who had more than 1 victory”.

I then called you out saying “I am going to ask you this directly. Are you disputing the fact that I have found 23 wins for him prior to the Wilde contest? Your response seems to suggest that you do. You have stated that his record of 23 wins is a misrepresention and that he only ever won 4. You are therefore casting doubt upon what I have told you, and therefore upon my integrity. Let's have it then. Did he win 4 in his entire career or the 23 I say he did prior to the Wilde contest? Do you actually know what you are talking about or don't you? Back it up with facts”.

I have heard nothing from you about it since.

Not only do you NOT back up your opinions with facts, but you run away when someone else does.

Let me make a few things clear to you.

1. Jimmy Wilde was no charlatan
2. Billy Paddon was a seasoned pro when he met Wilde
3. You are no boxing historian
4. You do not back up your opinions with facts
5. You are ruining this forum
6. I am with AmblingAlp, I am no longer interested in this forum all the time it is dominated by you and your inaccurate and prejudiced “opinions”.

You know as much about the history of boxing as my Auntie’s cat and you are a bore.

I am quite happy to post Billy Padden's record if it is of interest to people. It will certainly disprove Kalan's ludicrous claims

Miles Templeton

Boxrec is great but far from 100% accurate, especially in that era. Hence the disclaimer at the bottom of every record, even in this new technological age records are still inaccurate, you only have to look at the record queries and updates section to see that. Anyone arguing about old records is on a hiding to nothing.

BoxRec : data may be incomplete/inaccurate

I remember posting about Joe Gollob, there is one article showing him having a 138-11 record, on boxrec its 2-4 !!!

Thanks you. My new favorite thread.

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 07:06 Boxrec is great but far from 100% accurate, especially in that era. Hence the disclaimer at the bottom of every record, even in this new technological age records are still inaccurate, you only have to look at the record queries and updates section to see that. Anyone arguing about old records is on a hiding to nothing.

BoxRec : data may be incomplete/inaccurate

I remember posting about Joe Gollob, there is one article showing him having a 138-11 record, on boxrec its 2-4 !!!

Really!!! There’s an article showing Gollob with a 138-11 record??? You can print anything bud... Flat Earthers print that the world is flat instead of round... Do you believe them??? Did the article name any opponents who aren't on Boxrec??? I find it interesting that Gollob lost to Len Wickwar -- who's record is well documented... Wickwar fought approximately 470 fights that are listed by boxrec because they’ve been cross referenced and verified... That's a lot of fights.

I know many records are still incomplete, but in the case of Jimmy Wilde it's pretty damned obvious he spent most of his career fighting soft opponents while padding his record like crazy... There’d be more tough opponents if he didn’t.

There are only so many sources for boxrec... There're newspaper archives, magazines, books, documents, old record books, microfilm etc. They research as many sources as they can find and reference one against another... They’re pretty much the go to source of records for boxers and improved their techniques over the years... I would put more faith in their numbers than a newspaper article hyping a coming match-up – possibly quoting a poster or the boxer’s manager.

My hat's off to you, Kalan. You walked right into the lion's so to speak. Much respect!

All I see is pro wrestling referee...

The reason the wickwar record is virtually complete is because it was published in boxing news in 1965. All of the oldtimers records published in boxing news in the 1960s found their way onto boxrec in the early days. That is not at all indicative of most of the British fighters from the 1930s. Most of those are still very incomplete, although they are getting better, largely due to the availability of the online newspapers from the British library. I have spent a lifetime researching these newspapers and this is why I have so many bouts for Padden. I can do the same for all of Wilde's opponents. His record was not padded. Kalan, I am waiting for you to answer my question. Are you still telling me that Padden only had 13 bouts or will you admit that you are wrong for once? You have a lot to learn my son. You can start with a bit of humility. You can show a little respect for other people and their views and their knowledge.

No hard feelings but sort yourself out.

Miles Templeton.

prewarboxing wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 06:57 Kalan, you stated in a thread, which is now locked, that “I’d like to know an opinion that I haven’t backed up with data and facts”. I am now going to give you a very clear example of one. It relates to you calling that very fine Welsh boxer, Jimmy Wilde, a fraud and a charlatan.

Let me therefore remind you of the debate that we had only last week in the topic P4P Best Welsh Boxer Ever? Wilde or Calzaghe.
You stated that “With Wilde and a few other charlatans, opponents were often solicited off the street and given phony names. They were introduced to the crowd with phony records. They were never heard from again after padding the record of their only opponent. Wilde was probably the worst record padder in Fistic History… He engaged in many fraudulent fights...

Wilde was in his 49th fight — more fights than Calzaghe fought in his entire career — before he beat somebody who had more than 1 victory who’d won most of his fights. That opponent was Billy Padden who was 2-0-1. Although Padden won 4 fights in his entire 13 fight career, he fought Jimmy Wilde 3 times. Wilde fought 2 more fights that month his 50th and 51st fights .... and both opponents were making their pro debut”.

In response I politely pointed out to you that “My own research shows that before the December 1912 contest between Wilde and Padden, Billy's record was 23 wins, 6 losses and 2 draws. In his entire career Billy had 58 contests and not just the 13 you have found for him on boxrec. I think that your claim that Wilde's record was padded with nobodies is based upon the records you are seeing on boxrec, which are very incomplete for the period that Wilde was active”.

To which you responded “His record was misrepresented as having 23 wins when he only had 4 wins in his whole career... In those days novices with no wins and making their 3rd start would be misrepresented when announced... "In this corner... from Corpus Christi Texas... with 23 wins, 18 by knockout and only 4 defeats... Jack Dillinger." That's if they were in Renton WA... If they were in Corpus Christi TX he'd be from Maine... I'm sure the same thing went on in England... If the records were there and verifiable -- boxrec.com would be able to access them. Bear in mind that was Wilde's 49th fight and the FIRST guy he beat who had more than 1 victory”.

I then called you out saying “I am going to ask you this directly. Are you disputing the fact that I have found 23 wins for him prior to the Wilde contest? Your response seems to suggest that you do. You have stated that his record of 23 wins is a misrepresention and that he only ever won 4. You are therefore casting doubt upon what I have told you, and therefore upon my integrity. Let's have it then. Did he win 4 in his entire career or the 23 I say he did prior to the Wilde contest? Do you actually know what you are talking about or don't you? Back it up with facts”.

I have heard nothing from you about it since.

Not only do you NOT back up your opinions with facts, but you run away when someone else does.

Let me make a few things clear to you.

1. Jimmy Wilde was no charlatan
2. Billy Paddon was a seasoned pro when he met Wilde
3. You are no boxing historian
4. You do not back up your opinions with facts
5. You are ruining this forum
6. I am with AmblingAlp, I am no longer interested in this forum all the time it is dominated by you and your inaccurate and prejudiced “opinions”.

You know as much about the history of boxing as my Auntie’s cat and you are a bore.

I am quite happy to post Billy Padden's record if it is of interest to people. It will certainly disprove Kalan's ludicrous claims

Miles Templeton

Watch it young man, Kalan used to spar contenders and beat them. He knew Cus D'amato and many other trainers. He's met countless boxers and he used to box professionally. All of which are 100% accurate.

KALAN

It’s me again.

Just pointing out how your boxing knowledge is not all that it seems.

Since it was you that mentioned Len Wickwar (and not me) lets use his record as an example to show you how wrong you are, and how little you know about the subject that you seem to be so keen to tell us all about. You said that his record is a good example of how accurate BoxRec is, and by extension, how ‘padded’ Jimmy Wilde’s record was.
You said that because Wickwar’s record is so complete then so must Padden’s be. I had already stated to you that Padden’s record was far from complete but you seem unwilling to accept this, even though I have offered to send you his complete record of 58 contests (as the historian of boxing that you claim to be I thought that you might have been delighted to take me up on my offer).

Regarding Wickwar, lets have a look at his opponent for his first contest, namely Jim Shepherdson.
BoxRec has seven bouts for Jim.

This is the record that I have for him :

1928

Jun 22 Bert Ison (Leicester) LPTS(6) Gipsy Lane WM Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 27/06/1928 page 768
Jul 6 Billy Lowe (Coalville) WRTD3 Gipsy Lane WM Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 11/07/1928 page 9
Promoter: The Sports Syndicate
Aug 9 Bert Ison (Leicester) WPTS(6) Stadium Greyhound Track, Leicester
Source: Boxing 15/08/1928 page 76
Aug 17 Eric Jones (Coalville) LRSF4(6) Stableford Recreation Club, Coalville
Source: Coalville Times
Jones boxed a British Flyweight Title Eliminator 1939 and was Southern
Area Flyweight Champion 1939.
Promoter: Olympic SC
Oct 23 Len Wickwar (Leicester) LRSF4 Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 30/10/1928 page 251
Promoter: George Biddles

1929

Jan 1 Bert Ison (Leicester) WPTS(4) Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 09/01/1929 pages 406 and 407
Jan 22 Bert Ison (Leicester) DRAW(6) Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 30/01/1929 page 454
Jan 28 Bert Ison (Leicester) LPTS(6) Town Hall, Loughborough
Source: Boxing 06/02/1929 pages 471 and 470
Referee: Austin O'Connor Promoter: Alf Hall
Feb 1 Les Bevins (Leicester) DRAW(6) Belgrave Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 06/02/1929 page 470
Referee: Austin O'Connor Promoter: Alf Hall
Apr 8 Kid Pugh (Nottingham) WPTS(6) Drill Hall, Loughborough
Source: Boxing 17/04/1929 page 615
Promoter: Alf Hall
May 14 Kid Pugh (Nottingham) WPTS(8) Greyhound Stadium, Leicester
Source: Boxing 22/05/1929 page 685
Referee: Austin O'Connor Attendance: 4000
Oct 22 Ginger Brant (Leicester) WPTS(6) Baths Hall, Hinckley
Source: Leicester Mail
Promoter: GL Davenport and Alf Hall
Oct 25 Ginger Brant (Leicester) DRAW(6) Belgrave Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 30/10/1929 page 279
Nov 11 Ginger Brant (Leicester) WPTS(6) Victoria Baths, Nottingham
Source: Boxing 20/11/1929 page 328
Nov 25 Ginger Brant (Leicester) WPTS(10) Baths Hall, Kettering
Source: Boxing 27/11/1929 page 341
Dec 6 Billy Ball (Leicester) LPTS(6) Belgrave Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 11/12/1929 pages 376 and 375

1930

Jun 20 Cal Brooks WPTS(6) Belgrave Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 25/06/1930 page 825

1933

May 2 Ted Weston (Leicester) LPTS(4) Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 10/05/1933 page 14
May 9 Cyclone Weston (Leicester) LPTS(6) Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 17/05/1933 page 13
May 30 Ernie Leach (Mountsorrel) DRAW(6) Spinney Hill Club, Leicester
Source: Boxing 07/06/1933 page 13
Oct 6 Ralph Thomas (Barwell) LPTS(6) Aylestone WM Club, Leicester
Source: Leicester Mail


So, as you can see, he had at least 21 contests, probably more. If you are really the great authority that you seem to claim to be then can you please point out to me which are the bouts in my record that did not take place? I am all ears!

I am not saying my record is complete as so many bouts that happened in the 1920s and 1930s were never reported at all in the British press. I am merely trying to show that the BoxRec database is not accurate for this period. That is not to say that the guys who are updating the website with the results of their research are not doing a great job, they are, and good luck to them. The site is getting better all the time and I wish it the best of luck.

I wonder how much time you spend trying to improve the site by doing similar research. You seem very sure of yourself and your knowledge. What is this based upon? Have you ever spent any time at all actually researching the subject? It seems to me that you are quite happy to tell us all what you think, in extremely forceful terms, but I doubt that you know very much at all. In what way are you qualified to preach to us all about boxing history. Your knowledge about Wilde and his opponents show you up as being a minnow in a pool of experts.

There are people involved with this site who are doing their utmost to make it better. Then there are people like you. People who are quite happy to ram their views down our necks but from a position of weakness and ignorance.
I will ask you once again. How many bouts did Billy Padden have in his career? I am getting very frustrated that you cannot answer this question. Did he have the 13 you claim he had or did he have the 58 that I claim he had. Until you can back up your case with facts (remember what you said “I’d like to know an opinion that I haven’t backed up with data and facts”.) then I am rather disinclined to take any notice of the very many things that you have to say about boxing history.

Miles Templeton

PS. Let me know when you want the record for Billy Padden. I can't wait to send it to you.

prewarboxing wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:21 The reason the wickwar record is virtually complete is because it was published in boxing news in 1965. All of the oldtimers records published in boxing news in the 1960s found their way onto boxrec in the early days. That is not at all indicative of most of the British fighters from the 1930s. Most of those are still very incomplete, although they are getting better, largely due to the availability of the online newspapers from the British library. I have spent a lifetime researching these newspapers and this is why I have so many bouts for Padden. I can do the same for all of Wilde's opponents. His record was not padded. Kalan, I am waiting for you to answer my question. Are you still telling me that Padden only had 13 bouts or will you admit that you are wrong for once? You have a lot to learn my son. You can start with a bit of humility. You can show a little respect for other people and their views and their knowledge.

No hard feelings but sort yourself out.

Miles Templeton.

Sort your self out Hector.... Print up your version of Padden's record then.... We'll be able to see it's nonsense and doesn't cross check with other active boxers of the period... ANYBODY can print a load of bullshitting nonsense... Print up his record so we can check out the competition he faced against their records... It is WELL KNOWN that many boxers of the period had inflated records... That's why they're not published here unless they're cross-referenced and verified.

Never a single ounce of humility ^

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:50

prewarboxing wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:21 The reason the wickwar record is virtually complete is because it was published in boxing news in 1965. All of the oldtimers records published in boxing news in the 1960s found their way onto boxrec in the early days. That is not at all indicative of most of the British fighters from the 1930s. Most of those are still very incomplete, although they are getting better, largely due to the availability of the online newspapers from the British library. I have spent a lifetime researching these newspapers and this is why I have so many bouts for Padden. I can do the same for all of Wilde's opponents. His record was not padded. Kalan, I am waiting for you to answer my question. Are you still telling me that Padden only had 13 bouts or will you admit that you are wrong for once? You have a lot to learn my son. You can start with a bit of humility. You can show a little respect for other people and their views and their knowledge.

No hard feelings but sort yourself out.

Miles Templeton.

Sort your self out Hector.... Print up your version of Padden's record then.... We'll be able to see it's nonsense and doesn't cross check with other active boxers of the period... ANYBODY can print a load of bullshitting nonsense... Print up his record so we can check out the competition he faced against their records... It is WELL KNOWN that many boxers of the period had inflated records... That's why they're not published here unless they're cross-referenced and verified.

bullshitting nonsense?

You can't be serious Kalan!

Since you have been so kind as to ask Mr Kalan, I hereby submit my record for Billy Padden.

All of my sources are quoted within the record. Please feel free to enlighten me as to which are the 45 bouts that I have made up. I am very happy for you to point out to me what it is I am doing wrong.

If you wish to see any of my original source documents, then please, feel free to ask. It will be a pleasure for me to pass them on to you.

1909

Nov 20 J Thornton (Glasgow) DRAW(15) Southern AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 27/11/1909 page 299
Referee: J S Barron

1910

Feb 7 Jim Morton (Glasgow) WPTS(6) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 19/02/1910 pages 612 and 615
Oct 28 Harry Best (Partick) WPTS(8) Balmoral Club, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 12/11/1910 page 55
Oct 31 Charlie Holland (Belfast) WPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Manchester Sporting Chronicle



1911

Jan 7 Tommy Brown (West Hartlepool) WPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 14/01/1911 page 284
Jan 30 C Rocks (Hamilton) WPTS(6) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Mirror of Life
Feb Jim Morton (Glasgow) WPTS(6) Paisley
Source: Boxing 11/02/1911 page 386
Promoter: J Lochead
Feb 24 Spider Stewart (London) WPTS(6) Oxford AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 04/03/1911 page 461
Mar 3 Jim Easton (Glasgow) LPTS(10) Oxford AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 11/03/1911 page 487
Mar 25 Jim Easton (Glasgow) WPTS(15) Oxford AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 01/04/1911 page 560
Mar 31 Jim Morton (Glasgow) WPTS(10) Olympia Skating Rink, Aberdeen
Source: Boxing 08/04/1911 pages 586 and 588
Promoter: J S Barron
Apr 4 Johnny Best (Glasgow) WPTS(10) Athletic Club, Govan
Source: Boxing 15/04/1911 page 622
Apr 24 Spider Stewart (London) LPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 29/04/1911 page 658
Apr 29 George Dando (Merthyr) LPTS(10) St James Hall, Newcastle
Source: Boxing 06/05/1911 page 18
May 8 Charlie Prosser (Southwark) WPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 13/05/1911 page 38
Oct 9 Craig WPTS(6) Oxford AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 21/10/1911 page 623
Oct 23 Young Farmer (Greenock) WPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 28/10/1911 page 644
Dec 27 Jim Easton (Glasgow) WPTS(6) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 06/01/1912 page 254
Referee: Harry Rowe Promoter: George Dingley

1912

Feb 5 Collins (Glasgow) WPTS(6) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 10/02/1912 page 366
Feb 19 Hookey Green (Belfast) WPTS Alexandra Theatre, Belfast
Source: Boxing 02/03/1912 pages 447 and 448
Mar 5 Bobby Stevenson (Aberdeen) LPTS(10) Drill Hall, Edinburgh
Source: Boxing
Referee: D J Barrett(Boxing)


Mar 15 Vincent McWhirter (Dublin) WPTS(10) Alexandra Theatre, Belfast
Source: Boxing 23/03/1912 page 526
Referee: E Smith
Apr 9 Jim Easton (Glasgow) WPTS(20) Celtic Park, Belfast
Source: Boxing 20/04/1912 page 620
Jun 3 Johnny Best (Glasgow) LPTS Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 15/06/1912 page 164
Aug 19 Sammy Fletcher (Glasgow) WPTS(10) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 31/08/1912 pages 438 and 439
Oct 1 Taylor Brady (Belfast) WPTS(15) Theatre Royal, Belfast
Source: Boxing 12/10/1912 page 582
Referee: Tom Gamble
Tom Gamble stated the best contest he has ever refereed
Oct 21 Harry Brooks (Aldgate) WPTS(10) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Manchester Sporting Chronicle
Nov 4 Kid Morris (London) DRAW(15) Glasgow
Source: Mirror of Life
Nov 18 Boy Farmer (Greenock) DRAW(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Mirror of Life
Nov 23 Bobby Stevenson (Aberdeen) LPTS(10) Olympia, Aberdeen
Source: Boxing 30/11/1912 page 134
Dec 2 Kid Morris (St George's) WPTS(15) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 07/12/1912 page 151
Dec 24 Jim Easton (Glasgow) WPTS(6) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 04/01/1913 page 279
Dec 30 Jimmy Wilde (Tylorstown) LPTS(20) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 11/01/1913 page 302
Wilde was British Flyweight Champion 1916-23 and European Flyweight
Champion 1914-15 and 1916-17 and World Flyweight Champion 1916-23.
Padden 6st 13lbs Wilde 6st 11lbs
Referee: Brummy Meadows

1913

Jan Frankie Stevenson (Aberdeen) LPTS Aberdeen
Source: Boxing 01/02/1913 page 381
Mar 11 Billy Canning (Belfast) LPTS(15) Theatre Royal, Belfast
Source: Boxing 22/03/1913 page 558
Referee: Tom Gamble
May 5 Frank Avent (Bristol) WPTS(15) Badminton Club, Cardiff
Source: Mirror of Life
£10 a side
Jun 14 Jimmy Wilde (Tylorstown) LPTS(12) Pavilion Skating Rink, Tonypandy
Source: Boxing 21/06/1913 page 196

Dec Dan McGrady (Govan) LPTS(15) Glasgow
Source: Mirror of Life
Dec 15 Dan McGrady (Govan) LPTS(15) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 20/12/1913 page 196
Paddon 7st 3lbs McGrady 7st 12lbs

1914

Jan 29 Jimmy Wilde (Tylorstown) LRSF3(15) Pudsey Street Stadium, Liverpool
Source: Boxing 07/02/1914 page 368
Match made at 7st 2lbs
Promoter: Liverpool Sporting Association
Mar 11 Charlie Holland (Belfast) LPTS(10) Theatre Royal, Belfast
Source: Boxing 21/03/1914 page 550
Jun 8 Walter Buchan (Leith) DRAW(20) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 13/06/1914 page 166
Jul 6 Young Farmer (Greenock) DRAW(20) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 11/07/1914 pages 290, 317
Aug 5 Charlie Holland (Belfast) DRAW(10) Theatre Royal, Belfast
Source: Boxing 15/08/1914 page 414

1915

Apr 19 Sid Shields (Glasgow) LPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 28/04/1915 page 445
Apr 27 Sam Peters (London) WPTS(10) Western AC, Glasgow
Source: Manchester Sporting Chronicle
Referee: George Aitchison
May 3 Walter Ross (Glasgow) WPTS(10) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Manchester Sporting Chronicle
Ross was British Bantamweight Champion 1919-20.
Nov 1 Tommy Hughes (Blackburn) WPTS(15) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 10/11/1915 page 36

1916

May 8 Jim Blackley (Edinburgh) DRAW(10) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 17/05/1916 page 62
Nov 20 Young Joals WPTS(10) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 29/11/1916 page 72





1917

Jan 22 Pat McKay (Glasgow) LKO17(20) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing
(Scottish Flyweight Title)
Apr 9 Joe Clark (Glasgow) WPTS(15) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Manchester Sporting Chronicle
match made at 7st 6lbs
Oct 18 Tal Jones (Maesteg) LDSQ3(15) Pudsey Street Stadium, Liverpool
Source: Boxing
Promoter: Liverpool Sporting Association
Nov 22 Tal Jones (Maesteg) LPTS(15) Pudsey Street Stadium, Liverpool
Source: Boxing
Match made at 7st
Referee: Eugene Corri Promoter: Liverpool Sporting Association
£25 a side

1922

Apr 3 Jacky McPhee (Glasgow) DRAW(10) National AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 12/04/1922 page 144
May 22 Joe Clark (Glasgow) WPTS(6) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 31/05/1922 page 256
Oct 30 Joe McKean (Clydebank) LRTD13(20) Victoria AC, Glasgow
Source: Boxing 08/11/1922 page 206
(7st 6lbs Title of Scotland)

1923

Oct 8 Dave McConnell (Burnbank) LPTS(6) Physical Culture School, Parkhead
Source: Boxing 17/10/1923 page 160
(Bantamweight Belt competition 1st series)

I await you response with great interest.

I am so humbled to be dealing with such a great man as you.

Miles Templeton

Why don't you do research and help Boxrec correct their records if you're so good at it Oogie... I don't have time for it...

I'm going to use boxrec.com as my source of information because they have the best reputation -- although they could be wrong and incomplete on their records... I'm sure it's the best they can do... So if they're wrong and I'm relying on them as my source -- I'm going to be wrong... TOUGH!!! .... I'm still going to rely on them over a private researcher who claims to be better... Maybe boxrec can hire him to do research and it will be profitable for both of them.

By the way Mr Kalan, you might have noticed how open I am about who I actually am. I do not hide behind my boxrec name 'prewarboxing'. Are you prepared to do the same? I am sure that once we all know who you actually are it might help us. We are so awestruck by your wisdom and knowledge that we want to pay you the courtesy and respect that is so due to you for your wonderful knowledge of boxing history.

Out with it then.

Miles Templeton.

Hello Miles,

I'm curious are you writing a book? And will your info somehow be integrated into the record in a formal manner at some point?

I'd just as soon stay out of your point-counterpoint with Kalan, I'm not up for a debate......but I am interested in this bit of history, and fact gathering activity which sounds like it's intent is to correct the historical record somehow.

Or can you simply point me to a website or book that I can indulge in on this subject that can clarify?

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 15:26 Hello Miles,

I'm curious are you writing a book? And will your info somehow be integrated into the record in a formal manner at some point?

I'd just as soon stay out of your point-counterpoint with Kalan, I'm not up for a debate......but I am interested in this bit of history, and fact gathering activity which sounds like it's intent is to correct the historical record somehow.

Or can you simply point me to a website or book that I can indulge in on this subject that can clarify?

Ahhh...getting something from...

Boxbuzz. I will come back to you on this shortly. And thanks for being interested in what it is that I do.

Miles Templeton.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 15:03 Why don't you do research and help Boxrec correct their records if you're so good at it

Erm.... Sorry for pointing out the obvious... But why don't you? I don't profess to be the knowledgeable one. You do that all the effing time.

Miles Templeton.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:54
Really!!! There’s an article showing Gollob with a 138-11 record??? You can print anything bud... Flat Earthers print that the world is flat instead of round... Do you believe them??? Did the article name any opponents who aren't on Boxrec??? I find it interesting that Gollob lost to Len Wickwar -- who's record is well documented... Wickwar fought approximately 470 fights that are listed by boxrec because they’ve been cross referenced and verified... That's a lot of fights.

I know many records are still incomplete, but in the case of Jimmy Wilde it's pretty damned obvious he spent most of his career fighting soft opponents while padding his record like crazy... There’d be more tough opponents if he didn’t.

There are only so many sources for boxrec... There're newspaper archives, magazines, books, documents, old record books, microfilm etc. They research as many sources as they can find and reference one against another... They’re pretty much the go to source of records for boxers and improved their techniques over the years... I would put more faith in their numbers than a newspaper article hyping a coming match-up – possibly quoting a poster or the boxer’s manager.

Your contradicting yourself, you question someones record then in the next sentence agree many records are incomplete. How do you decide which ones are complete and which ones are not?

Maybe you can explain why Gollob was pictured on the cover of British magazine "Boxing" in 1937 (which later became Boxing News) titled "Canadian Lightweight Champion over here to meet our best"?

As for Wickwar his record on boxrec in 2001 was 6-7-2, as Miles said its only because people have spent hours and hours researching his career that its as complete as it is now. Maybe look up Miles and see what he does before questioning him. I seem to recall having to post links to articles because you couldn't find them, plus correcting you after you stated the question mark at the start of each fight on boxrec meant it was "dubious" so your research skills and knowledge on records aren't the best.

I'm not a researcher... If the information on boxrec is 1% or 5% wrong It's about as accurate as I can come up with... It's still good enough to make an assessment on Jimmy Wilde when comparing him with Joe Calzaghe who never lost.

Wilde's record was heavily padded and that's the main thrust you get from looking at it now -- or in 500 years when boxrec will have probably made some changes to it if they're still around.

Hell the sport itself might not even be around in 500 years...but none of us will be either so it'll be alright I guess.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 17:43 I'm not a researcher... If the information on boxrec is 1% or 5% wrong It's about as accurate as I can come up with... It's still good enough to make an assessment on Jimmy Wilde when comparing him with Joe Calzaghe who never lost.

Wilde's record was heavily padded and that's the main thrust you get from looking at it now -- or in 500 years when boxrec will have probably made some changes to it if they're still around.

Clearly. If someone like Miles, who is a boxing historian, tells you boxrec is "very incomplete for that period" who are you to argue the toss, when in your own words you are not a researcher?

Joe Gollob has cropped up here as a subject of interest. I do not know about his record prior to him coming over to the UK in 1938 but I have researched his British record in some detail. During the war he served as a Lance-Corporal in the Canadian Army and he was stationed in the UK for quite a long time.

Here is his UK record as I currently have it :

Oct 17 1938 Len Wickwar(Leicester) LRSF6(8) Empress Hall, Earls Court
source: Boxing 19/10/1938 page 11

Nov 13 1938 Rex Whitney(Wellingborough) LDSQ1(8) Devonshire Club, Hackney
source: Boxing 16/11/1938 page 14

Jan 1 1939 Sid Fitzhugh(Northampton) LRSF6(8) Devonshire Club, Hackney
source: Boxing 04/01/1939 pages 13 and 19

Jan 16 1939 Fins Dekkers(Holland) LKO5(10) St George's Hall, Guernsey
source: Boxing 25/01/1939 page 21

Jan 23 1939 Charlie Chetwin(Nottingham) WRTD3(10) Corn Exchange, Bury St Edmunds
source: Boxing Weekly Record 01/02/1939 page 21

Aug 16 1940 Jim Teasdale(Middlesbrough) LKO5(10) Farrer Street Stadium, Middlesbrough
source: North-Eastern Daily Gazette

Jul 25 1941 Harry Craster(Middlesbrough) LRTD3(10) Horsley Hill Stadium, South Shields
source: Newcastle Daily Journal

Apr 6 1942 Bill Hood(Plymouth) LPTS(8) Colston Hall, Bristol
source: Bristol Evening |Post

Jan 11 1943 Johnny Darkie Davies(Gelligaer) WPTS(10) Barton Street Baths, Gloucester
source: Gloucester Citizen

Mar 20 1943 Johnny Darkie Davies(Gelligaer) LPTS(10) Palais de Danse, Pontypool
source: Boxing News 01/04/1943 page 15

Jun 29 1943 Billy Edwards(Argoed) WDSQ6(8) Town Hall, Watford
source: Boxing News 08/07/1943 pages 15 and 16

Sep 14 1943 Signalman Ivor Jones (RCS & Blaenavon) RNK(8) Town Hall, Watford
source: West Herts and Watford Observer

Oct 5 1943 Joe Orsatelli(France) LKO2(6) Town Hall, Watford
source: West Herts and Watford Observer

The bout on Sep 14 1943 is marked RNK - This means result not known.
The newspaper report did not give the outcome of the bout unfortunately.


Obviously Kalan, who tells us all that we are all ‘flat-earthers’ if we contradict him, may have some pearls of wisdom to add. He will no doubt wish to tell me that the contests I have here never happened, or that the men Gollob fought were all stiffs used to ‘pad out’ his record, or that it was Gollob who was the stiff, or some other such twaddle that he happily spouts out to enlighten us all. Feel free Kalan, as usual, to challenge me on any of this. After all I am only following your example: “I’d like to know an opinion that I haven’t backed up with data and facts”. None of your opinions are ever backed up with data or facts. They are just your opinion, and from where I sit your opinions are worthless, tiresome, and boring.

Miles Templeton