BoxRec

After reading an article about Harry Greb in Sports Illustrated's Book of Boxing, it occured to me that the film of Greb may have been deliberately destroyed by fans of his who didn't want him judged by modern standards. He was an incredibly dirty fighter who wouldn't get past the first round with a modern ref. The guy used every part of his body as a weapon. Thumbs, knees, head butts, elbows, etc. I'm amazed he wasn't DQ'd even once.

Cap

It is,as you point out, a very strange thing to understand how he managed to get away with what he did on quite a regular basis. His fights were bloodbaths at times. the one he had with Gene Tunney comes to mind as Tunney said he lost a quart of blood.

fights of that era were very brutal and I think the rules were set to one side on many an occasion - the ref wanted to stay alive -so people like Greb took full advantage.

given the fact he was blind in one eye and the other was crap its no surprise to read about his boxing methods.

Are you serious?!? You actually think someone deliberately destroyed films of Greb to protect his reputation??? That has got to be the most hairbrained theory yet. First of all, films of Greb would in all likelyhood show that he wasnt nearly as dirty as the New York press liked to imagine. Those claims came about after Billy Gibson, Gene Tunneys manager, started lobbying for Greb to be handcuffed by the referee in the Tunney rematch which Greb won but was robbed of. The simple fact is that the film, if indeed it no longer exists, likely fell pray to the same fate as so many other lost boxing films which is to say that it either deteriorated as silver nitrate film does, burned as silver nitrate film is highly flammable, or was destroyed for the silver content as many early films were.

And for the record Greb was DQd once, he was DQd when he fought Kid Norfolk the second time. Bell rang ending a round and Greb turned to return to his corner and Norfolk threw a punch (probably accidental) which Greb thought was on purpose and he attacked Norfolk. It caused a minor riot and Greb was DQ'd. Many thought Norfolk should have DQ'd and as a result both fighters were banned from boxing in Boston and other states for a time.

am i correct in saying you are writing a book on Greb

The Great Greb was not the only fighter of that time who used the rough tactics, he himself lost an eye in a fight of course.
Was it not true Harry received few favours, his reputation preceded him.
The second Tunney fight has been mentioned, though the third was also closer than generally remembered, and what about his last fight for his old title, again many, including the referee thought Harry had won easily.

Greb`s death is the one mystery I have never been able to get to the bottom of.
One story is having the eye taken out, though I have read he was at the Tunney v Dempsey fight wearing an eye patch, which would prove he had the eye taken out before his death.
Another is a car accident where he broke his nose and went to have it re-set, but Greb `s nose was long flattened, and even if a car had driven full speed into his nose it would have not made it any worse.
The one I like to believe is that he went to have his nose straightened because he wanted to get into the new movie scene, Harry as most will know was very vain, so I think this sounds the most plausible reason.

If Klompton you are writing a book on the Great Greb keep us informed.

klompton wrote:Are you serious?!? You actually think someone deliberately destroyed films of Greb to protect his reputation??? That has got to be the most hairbrained theory yet. First of all, films of Greb would in all likelyhood show that he wasnt nearly as dirty as the New York press liked to imagine. Those claims came about after Billy Gibson, Gene Tunneys manager, started lobbying for Greb to be handcuffed by the referee in the Tunney rematch which Greb won but was robbed of. The simple fact is that the film, if indeed it no longer exists, likely fell pray to the same fate as so many other lost boxing films which is to say that it either deteriorated as silver nitrate film does, burned as silver nitrate film is highly flammable, or was destroyed for the silver content as many early films were.

And for the record Greb was DQd once, he was DQd when he fought Kid Norfolk the second time. Bell rang ending a round and Greb turned to return to his corner and Norfolk threw a punch (probably accidental) which Greb thought was on purpose and he attacked Norfolk. It caused a minor riot and Greb was DQ'd. Many thought Norfolk should have DQ'd and as a result both fighters were banned from boxing in Boston and other states for a time.

Does seem odd though that of all the legends of that period he is one of the very few not to have some film record left.

Cap wrote:

klompton wrote:Are you serious?!? You actually think someone deliberately destroyed films of Greb to protect his reputation??? That has got to be the most hairbrained theory yet. First of all, films of Greb would in all likelyhood show that he wasnt nearly as dirty as the New York press liked to imagine. Those claims came about after Billy Gibson, Gene Tunneys manager, started lobbying for Greb to be handcuffed by the referee in the Tunney rematch which Greb won but was robbed of. The simple fact is that the film, if indeed it no longer exists, likely fell pray to the same fate as so many other lost boxing films which is to say that it either deteriorated as silver nitrate film does, burned as silver nitrate film is highly flammable, or was destroyed for the silver content as many early films were.

And for the record Greb was DQd once, he was DQd when he fought Kid Norfolk the second time. Bell rang ending a round and Greb turned to return to his corner and Norfolk threw a punch (probably accidental) which Greb thought was on purpose and he attacked Norfolk. It caused a minor riot and Greb was DQ'd. Many thought Norfolk should have DQ'd and as a result both fighters were banned from boxing in Boston and other states for a time.

Does seem odd though that of all the legends of that period he is one of the very few not to have some film record left.

Actually most top boxers of that period have little to no film footage available of them . . . . no Fred Fulton film, no Harry Willis film pre 1926, no Jack Dillon film, very little Benny Leanard film etc.

I am writing a book on Greb. Its nearly finished.

Dempsey is right that there is very little film which exists of Grebs era:

No film on Tiger Flowers despite known films having been shot

There is film of Wills before 1926, his fight with Bartley Madden in 1924 exists in highlites. But his fights with Fulton, Norfolk, Firpo, and Sharkey were likely filmed and dont exist. His fight with Weinert was definately filmed as that was on the same card as Greb-Walker, and Shade-Slattery all of which were filmed (I have newspaper advertisements for the film).

Only a brief clip of Battling Levinsky exists from his fight with Jim Savage on the undercard of Willard-Moran despite the fact that his fight with Carpentier was probably filmed.

No footage of Dillon

No footage of Johnny Wilson (his second fight with Bryan Downey was probably filmed and maybe a fight with Greb)

No footage of Rosenbloom exists

The earliest footage of Loughran that exists is from his training with Dempsey in 1926.

We know that several of Mickey Walkers fights were filmed that dont exist.

Benny Leonard was another that probably had several fights filmed but only a his two fights with Tendler exist on film.

No footage of Jack Britton exists.

I know of tons of fights from the teens and twenties that were filmed but dont exist anymore, most of them involving white hopes, and haevyweights. Its just the nature of the beast. Certainly not a conspiracy to protect Greb's image. Besides, if Greb is remembered (wrongly) as a dirty fighter why would people destroy films that according that silly idea only support those claims?

I am writing a book on Greb. Its nearly finished.

Dempsey is right that there is very little film which exists of Grebs era:

No film on Tiger Flowers despite known films having been shot

There is film of Wills before 1926, his fight with Bartley Madden in 1924 exists in highlites. But his fights with Fulton, Norfolk, Firpo, and Sharkey were likely filmed and dont exist. His fight with Weinert was definately filmed as that was on the same card as Greb-Walker, and Shade-Slattery all of which were filmed (I have newspaper advertisements for the film).

Only a brief clip of Battling Levinsky exists from his fight with Jim Savage on the undercard of Willard-Moran despite the fact that his fight with Carpentier was probably filmed.

No footage of Dillon

No footage of Johnny Wilson (his second fight with Bryan Downey was probably filmed and maybe a fight with Greb)

No footage of Rosenbloom exists

The earliest footage of Loughran that exists is from his training with Dempsey in 1926.

We know that several of Mickey Walkers fights were filmed that dont exist.

Benny Leonard was another that probably had several fights filmed but only a his two fights with Tendler exist on film.

No footage of Jack Britton exists.

I know of tons of fights from the teens and twenties that were filmed but dont exist anymore, most of them involving white hopes, and haevyweights. Its just the nature of the beast. Certainly not a conspiracy to protect Greb's image. Besides, if Greb is remembered (wrongly) as a dirty fighter why would people destroy films that according that silly idea only support those claims?

That's surprising that no Rosenbloom footage exists. He fought so much in Hollywood and Los Angeles, that you'd think that he would have been filmed at some point.

He almost certainly was filmed but the whole point is that it wasnt uncommon, in fact its the norm rather than the exception, that these old fights have been lost to history.

I certainly figured that there would be a slew of footage on Rosenbloom available. Of any fighter in history that I would like to see films of, it would definitely be Greb. A couple of years ago I was having lunch with Tracy Callis and Dan Cuoco and Dan mentioned that Fritzie Zivic, in talking about his career, once stated that he wouldn't even be able to be remembered as Pittsburgh's dirtiest fighter, which is saying a lot coming from Zivic.

Greb wasnt half as dirty as hes reputed to be. Fritzie was a talker and full of hyperbole. He was 13 when Greb died and despite this probably lack of knowledge about Greb its surprising that he would insinuate that Greb was dirty or even dirtier than himself since most of Grebs contemporaries and especially those from Pittsburgh, fiercely denied the aspersions cast on Greb's ring tactics.

there does exist footage of greb, not fighting but 'working out', playing around, showing how he won a fight etc...

you can see it here. http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html

it also features Jack O'Brian, James "Red" Mason(harry's manager), Mickey Walker, DeForest, and Miss Naomi Braden.

i tried to view those clips but for some odd reason my computer said no

job for the tech minded

I to downloaded the files and was unable to view them.
It is a MOV file that I cannot find anything to view with.
HELP NEEDED

try right c;icking on the file you want, then click "save as" then se;ect whatever destination folder you want them in.

saving it is not the problem, its viewing it after..

tonyevs wrote:saving it is not the problem, its viewing it after..

Download this. It plays everything.

tonyevs wrote:saving it is not the problem, its viewing it after..

try downloading the qicktime player....

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/index.html

just download the basic one. theres no need for the pro edition to view these films on the harry greb site

Who would want to destroy all known film footage of Harry Grebb/
how about an opponent who had sour grapes about to loosing to him?
Who perhaps didnt want to leave any record of his getting his as* whupped and embarresed for years and years afterward to all who would view the film footage.
and who also had (reportly)underworld connections.
Maybe you can guess who im talking about.
You know,thats what some of the ancient pharoahs did to pharoahs before them in ancient Egypt,they earsed all known record of them,had their heigrogliphics removed chiseled off.

klompton wrote:Are you serious?!? You actually think someone deliberately destroyed films of Greb to protect his reputation??? That has got to be the most hairbrained theory yet. First of all, films of Greb would in all likelyhood show that he wasnt nearly as dirty as the New York press liked to imagine. Those claims came about after Billy Gibson, Gene Tunneys manager, started lobbying for Greb to be handcuffed by the referee in the Tunney rematch which Greb won but was robbed of. The simple fact is that the film, if indeed it no longer exists, likely fell pray to the same fate as so many other lost boxing films which is to say that it either deteriorated as silver nitrate film does, burned as silver nitrate film is highly flammable, or was destroyed for the silver content as many early films were.

And for the record Greb was DQd once, he was DQd when he fought Kid Norfolk the second time. Bell rang ending a round and Greb turned to return to his corner and Norfolk threw a punch (probably accidental) which Greb thought was on purpose and he attacked Norfolk. It caused a minor riot and Greb was DQ'd. Many thought Norfolk should have DQ'd and as a result both fighters were banned from boxing in Boston and other states for a time.

Cap wrote:After reading an article about Harry Greb in Sports Illustrated's Book of Boxing, it occured to me that the film of Greb may have been deliberately destroyed by fans of his who didn't want him judged by modern standards. He was an incredibly dirty fighter who wouldn't get past the first round with a modern ref. The guy used every part of his body as a weapon. Thumbs, knees, head butts, elbows, etc. I'm amazed he wasn't DQ'd even once.

Cap

Greb was indeed a dirty fighter, but back then the rules were different. The game was rougher and tougher. Fighters in clinches could let their hands go wherever they pleased, save an obvious low blow. Kidney shots, rabbit punches, shoves, and such were fair game. Watch Dempsey. He was pure hell as an infighter.

One boxing guy once said, Greb would hit you all over the body, and if you picked up your up off the mat, he'd hit you on the bottom of your foot too.

I have read that people claimed to have seen Greb on film in the 1960's, but I highly doubt someone would destroy a Greb fight film. Some films been edited, but who would destroy them?

A rare boxing film can be worth thousands of dollars. Greb vs Tunney was filmed, and without a doubt, this is one of the most wanted fight films out there.

I imagine Harry Greb as a sort of early version of Aaron Pryor without the punching power and much much dirtier. Probably threw a lot of open-gloves and arm punches with little on them, which would impress the hell out of hick-town judges and local political/mob cronies posing as judges. He had a good beard and was always in good shape to go the distance, but those punches to the kidneys and such were his bread and butter.

As for who would destroy those films, as has been said here, boxing has changed a lot. They let a lot of things go in the 20s that would not be tolerated even 15 or twenty years later. Anyone watching films of Greb who had not lived through the era, would be shocked by all of his reportedly dirty tactics. Someone who would want to preserve the legend of Greb as a great boxer from modern eyes might easily set about destroying the few existing films, and would have more than enough help from like-minded old timers. Might even be someone in this forum who claims to be searching for these very films....

I think its funny you guys act like youve seen and obviously dont know what the hell your talking about. Quote me one source where a Kidney punch was ever used by Greb. You want to know the foul Greb committed the most? Holding and hitting. You know why? No depth perception, he was blind in one eye.

I also like your reference to so-called hick town judges. The era you act like your an expert on, had fight clubs in almost everytown, putting fights on almost every week, sometimes several a week. The average "hick town judge" so more fights in a year than youve seen in your life.

And about his so-called dirty tactics. Did it ever occur to you who started all that talk? New York boxing writers. The most powerful writers of the day. It started because of a man named Gene Tunney whose manager was owned those writers. Tunney got his ass kicked by Greb and to have Greb handcuffed in New York they had these guys write that Greb fought dirty etc. When Greb kicked Tunneys ass a second time in New York he was robbed. The majority of the papers agreed as did people like Jack McCauliffe, Bill Muldoon, and other notable experts. Many people called for investigation and accused Tunney of the dirty tactics, pulling Grebs head into his chest and then claiming he had been headbutted. I actually have a photo of this happening.

I suggest you do some research on Greb and this era and you might be surprised that he wasnt half as dirty as you suggest. Especially when you consider that he had one DQ, which could have easily resulted in a DQ for his opponent, in 300 fights.

The fact that some of you entertain the assinine notion that there is a conspiracy to destroy films of Greb to somehow legitimize his greatness is ridiculous. Stanley Ketchel is considered great and the only films we have of him make him look terrible. Jack Delaney is a hall of famer and we dont have a single fight he won on film. You can down the list like this but its pointless. You will believe what you want. Its a shame, its a twisted little conspiracy theory.

When I say dirty tactics, I mean just that. Some fighters can get away with fouls because their persona trumps the Queensberry rules.

For example Ali held illegally in many matches, but his charisma allowed him to get away with it. Did Ali ever lose a point for holding?

Sonny Liston is another foul fighter on film. He went low un purpose. Put substances on his glove, hit kidneys in clinches, and so on. Yet Liston like Ali captured the public imagination with his bad boy image and fistic displays of brutality.

Greb wasn’t a trash talking showman like Ali was or a criminal like Liston, but he was most certainly an all action fighter, so if he head butted on the way in , used his elbow in the clinches, or tossed one low while working the body, he got away with it.

If some allegedly destroyed a Greb bout, I’m curious to know which one. Not all of Greb’s fights were filmed, so the author who said one was allegedly destroyed needs to reveal which fight at the bear minimum to restore credibility.

I have never seen a book with Greb as the prime subject material. There are no confirmed Greb fights to watch, and I;ve never seen interviews on Greb by people who saw him fight live, or saw one of his missing films. All that is left on Greb is a training film, still pictures, a few quotes from historians, and newspaper reports. Good luck to the Greb author to be. To be honest, causal fans do not know who Greb was.