BoxRec

A thread about Vitali Klitschko in the current scene made me think, "Why not compare Championship reigns?", between both Klitschko brothers and other champions; in particular Larry Holmes whose 20 defenses were mainly built upon the "tomato can" variety.

Larry Holmes

Alfredo Evangelista
Ossie Ocassio (13-0-0)
Mike Weaver (19-8-0)
Earnie Shavers
Lorenzo Zanon
Leroy Jones
Scott LeDoux
Muhammad Ali
Trevor Berbick (18-1-1)
Leon Spinks
Renaldo Snipes
Randall Cobb
Gerry Cooney
Lucien Rodriguez
Tim Witherspoon (15-0-0)
Scott Frank
(Non-Title; Marvis Frazier, 10-0-0)
James Smith (14-1-0)
David Bey (14-0-0)
Carl Williams (16-0-0)

___________________________

In retrospect, many of the men Holmes beaten as Champion with name recognition were essentially pro novices; they had yet to really become the well respected Heavyweights we'd come to know (Weaver, Smith, Berbick, Spoon).

So let's not exaggerate the capabilities of these men because they hadn't quite found their niche in the sport. So who's really left?

Shavers was already beaten by Holmes before, and in the 80s he was nowhere near the monster he was in the 70s. Spinks was already poleaxed in one round by Gerrie Coetzee, so was it of any real surprise? Ali may as well have been the walking dead, so what's the point?

Who then is Holmes best win? It must be Gerry Cooney, who had been inactive for nearly 2 years and was plagued with shoulder injuries and was becoming an alcoholic and cocaine abuser. If you completely dismiss the three points taken away from low blows, Cooney would have been essentially on even terms with Holmes according to the scorecards until the knockout.

Considering the kind of criticism and skepticism and doubt as to Cooney's worth and potential and abilities since that time, it's not really a kind picture for Larry's Championship reign. But, in a recent Interview with RING MAGAZINE Holmes is quoted as saying that after winning the title from Ken Norton, "Everything else was playground fighting."

Vitali and Deontay Wilder's title defenses have been very weak up until Ortiz. Deontay turned it around with the win over Luis Ortiz which is by far the biggest win of his career, and trumps any victory on Vitali's resume by a wide margin.

Vitali Klitschko

(Merging his two reigns as one; not counting his time as WBO Champion way back in the day)

Danny Williams
Samuel Peter
Juan Carlos Gomez
Chris Arreola
Kevin Johnson
Albert Sosnowski
Shannon Briggs
Odlanier Solis
Tomasz Adamek
Dereck Chisora
Manual Charr

____________________________

Four of which were former or current champions of the world at Cruiserweight or Heavyweight. Four on the list were undefeated, five on the list had 2 losses or less. All but three on the list was knocked out; one can argue those matches should have been stopped as one-sided as they were.

Are any of them comparable to Shavers, Cooney, etc? No. However, they are by and large equal to or superior to the likes of Cobb, LeDoux, Frank, Evangelista, Zanon, etc.

Who was the best guy that Vitali Klitschko defeated? For my money it was Adamek. He was a former 175 pound Champ, and a former Cruiserweight Champ, who defeated 6 reasonable Heavyweights prior to Klitschko.

Wladimir Klitschko

(Not counting his WBO Championship reign way back in the day)

Chris Byrd
Calvin Brock
Ray Austin
Lamon Brewster
Sultan Ibragimov
Tony Thompson (2x)
Hasim Rahman
Ruslan Chagaev
Eddie Chambers
Samuel Peter
David Haye
Jean Marc Mormeck
Mariusz Watch
Francesco Pianeta
Alexander Povetkin
Alex Leapai
Kubrat Pulev
Bryant Jennings

____________________________

Eight were former or current champions at Cruiserweight and Heavyweight; Thirteen were kayoed, and eight were undefeated, and eight had four losses or less. Undefeated a decade, champion for eight years.

Are any of them comparable to Shavers? No. But I'd argue many are comparable to Cooney, Weaver, Smith, etc when Holmes fought them.

The best that he defeated? It's a difficult proposition but I'd say that it's a tie between David Haye and Povetkin.

Corrie Sanders or Samuel Peter I'd say are his best wins.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:27 Corrie Sanders or Samuel Peter I'd say are his best wins.

I'm going from first title defense onwards.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:29

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:27 Corrie Sanders or Samuel Peter I'd say are his best wins.

I'm going from first title defense onwards.

Both were technically title wins.

Adamek I'd probably agree with you was the best of his defenses.

Ali had a few too

Chuvalo
London
Mildenberger
Wepner
Coopman
Dunn
Evangelista

Controversial wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:48 Ali had a few too

Chuvalo
London
Mildenberger
Wepner
Coopman
Dunn
Evangelista

I don't know if I would put Chuvalo there along the lines of being among the worst. He did kayo Jerry Quarry, and defeated quite a mixed bag of good fighters. Besides, he fought the prime absolute best version of Ali, not many would have looked good with him in the 60s.

Klitschkos defeated almost all best opposition available, but, of course, Wlad was taking the very best of them. They just were not in the toughest era with nobody of their level. The same can be said about Holmes. And Wilder otherwise could have met someone better earlier, he was clearly protected. Ali generally fought the best, but began taking the easier challenges at the late stages of his reign.

Valuev can join the list and maybe even take the leading position, although both his reigns were not so long.

Bowe's defences against Dokes and Ferguson were disgraceful.

an absolute steaming pile of sh!t between the resumes of vitali and wilder. almost 90 wins in all yet f@cking bermane stiverne and derrick chisora is up there as some of the best wins then utter crap like sosnowski, artur szpilka, manuel charr etc

wilder is actually getting hyped as a risk taker now compared to aj when his second best opponent in 40 fights is bermane stiverne

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑20 Jun 2018, 23:49 Larry Holmes

Alfredo Evangelista
Ossie Ocassio (13-0-0)
Mike Weaver (19-8-0)
Earnie Shavers
Lorenzo Zanon
Leroy Jones
Scott LeDoux
Muhammad Ali
Trevor Berbick (18-1-1)
Leon Spinks
Renaldo Snipes
Randall Cobb
Gerry Cooney
Lucien Rodriguez
Tim Witherspoon (15-0-0)
Scott Frank
(Non-Title; Marvis Frazier, 10-0-0)
James Smith (14-1-0)
David Bey (14-0-0)
Carl Williams (16-0-0)

___________________________

In retrospect, many of the men Holmes beaten as Champion with name recognition were essentially pro novices; they had yet to really become the well respected Heavyweights we'd come to know (Weaver, Smith, Berbick, Spoon).

So let's not exaggerate the capabilities of these men because they hadn't quite found their niche in the sport. So who's really left?

Shavers was already beaten by Holmes before, and in the 80s he was nowhere near the monster he was in the 70s. Spinks was already poleaxed in one round by Gerrie Coetzee, so was it of any real surprise? Ali may as well have been the walking dead, so what's the point?

Who then is Holmes best win? It must be Gerry Cooney, who had been inactive for nearly 2 years and was plagued with shoulder injuries and was becoming an alcoholic and cocaine abuser. If you completely dismiss the three points taken away from low blows, Cooney would have been essentially on even terms with Holmes according to the scorecards until the knockout.



Considering the kind of criticism and skepticism and doubt as to Cooney's worth and potential and abilities since that time, it's not really a kind picture for Larry's Championship reign. But, in a recent Interview with RING MAGAZINE Holmes is quoted as saying that after winning the title from Ken Norton, "Everything else was playground fighting."

Holmes title defenses were against the best men available at the time. It's not as if he notoriously avoided anyone while fighting lesser opposition. Let's examine who he fought, when & why:

Alfredo Evangelista ( 23-2-1 ) - Evangelista was the EBU champion & had gone 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali the previous year in a world title shot. In retrospect, it wasn't a great title fight by any means but believe it or not some boxing writers of the day ( such as Dick Young ) gave the Uruguayan a shot at pressuring his way to an upset win.

Ossie Ocasio ( 13-0 ) - This was to be Jimmy Young's title shot but he lost twice to Ocasio so it went to the unbeaten Puerto Rican instead. Again, it was a mismatch but it's not as if the opportunity could have gone to Young after back to back losses.

Mike Weaver ( 19-8 ) - Despite his less than stellar record Weaver was very much deserving of this title shot as he was on a decent winning streak which included KO victories over contenders Stan Ward & Bernardo Mercado. And, of course, he validated it by giving Holmes hell for 12 rounds & later winning the WBA title.

Earnie Shavers ( 59-7-1 ) - Shavers was the WBC's mandatory #1 contender & had just KO'd Ken Norton in one round in an elimination bout.

Lorenzo Zanon ( 25-4-2 ) - Admittedly, this was just a stay busy, tune up-type fight. But, again, Zanon was the EBU champion which, at the time, automatically made him a top ten contender in the 'BC ratings.

Leroy Jones ( 24 -0-1 ) - Jones proved to be nowhere in Holmes league but was an unbeaten top contender with victories over Mike Weaver, "Dino" Dennis & Pedro Lovell.

Scott Ledoux ( 26-8-4 ) - This was originally penciled in as a defense against either Ron Lyle or Marty Monroe, but Lyle who had beaten Ledoux a year earlier was shockingly KO'd in a tune-up fight by Lynn Ball & the unbeaten Monroe was narrowly outpointed by Ledoux, so the shot went to the Minnesota veteran. A mismatch yes but no worse than many stay busy title defenses by other champions.

Muhammad Ali ( 56-3 ) - A sad affair in retrospect but a right of passage fight that scores of other champions throughout history have taken part in.

Trevor Berbick ( 18-1-1 ) - The Canadian heavyweight champion was given this shot based on his KO9 over former WBA champion John Tate & was the first title challenger to take Holmes the distance. Eventually won the WBC title later down the road.

Leon Spinks ( 10-2-2 ) - The former world champion had rebounded from his losses to Ali & Gerrie Coetzee with a series of wins including a KO over #1 contender Bernardo Mercado in a final eliminator.

Renaldo Snipes ( 22-0 ) - The unbeaten Snipes got this shot on the back of his three decision wins over unbeaten "Jumbo" Cummings, WBA light heavyweight champ Eddie Mustafa Muhammad & top contender Coetzee.

Gerry Cooney ( 25-0 ) - Another #1 mandatory WBC contender.

"Tex" Cobb ( 20-2 ) - Yet another title defense that was supposed to go to Bernardo Mercado but Cobb upset him so the opportunity went his way.

Lucien Rodriguez ( 35-7-1 ) - Another safe title defense vs the EBU heavyweight champion.

Tim Witherspoon ( 15-0 ) - Witherspoon was young & relatively inexperienced at the time but had beaten Snipes en route to Holmes. Furure WBC & WBA champion.

Scott Frank ( 20-0-1 ) - Another gimme title defense vs the unbeaten New Jersey fighter who basically earned this opportunity via an undeserved draw with Renaldo Snipes.

Marvis Frazier ( 10-0 ) - A total mismatch for sure but Frazier did earn it with wins over Joe Bugner & unbeaten James Broad.

"Bonecrusher" Smith ( 14-1 ) - Earned shot via upset KO over unbeaten future WBC champ Frank Bruno. Future WBA champ.

David Bey ( 14-0 ) - Upset top contender Greg Page to earn shot.

Carl Williams ( 16-0 ) - More prospect than contender at the time but proved himself worthy by giving a faded Holmes a very tough 12 rounds. Became perennial contender.

Interesting take sweetviolenturge. You can pretty much spin almost any fighter to be worthy, can't you? Most of these fights made some sense at the time.
In reality, they were a mixed bag of talent.
I would add that the Williams fight was actually 15 rounds, not 12. And Williams didn't just give Holmes a tough fight. He got hosed. The scoring by those judges was unbelievable. That was Homes' last fight on free network TV.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:52

Controversial wrote: ↑21 Jun 2018, 00:48 Ali had a few too

Chuvalo
London
Mildenberger
Wepner
Coopman
Dunn
Evangelista

I don't know if I would put Chuvalo there along the lines of being among the worst. He did kayo Jerry Quarry, and defeated quite a mixed bag of good fighters. Besides, he fought the prime absolute best version of Ali, not many would have looked good with him in the 60s.

Well said.... couldn't agree more.

Any heavyweight with lengthy title reigns is gonna have their share of stiffs.. Louis Holmes Ali etc.. but I will say both Klitschko s runs were littered with Rusty Drunks, Willie Gettups or Kenny Lasts.

Which is why the sheer number of title defenses doesn't mean anything. We often see people point out "accomplishments" with something like "he had 12 title defenses". That is faulty thinking.
The sheer number doesn't mean anything. As we have seen, you can always find an easy opponent to defend your title against. A successful title defense against 1 great fighter is more of an "accomplishment" than 20 title defenses against stiffs.

Joe Louis

Jersey Joe Walcott (2xs)
Buddy Baer (2xs)
Arturo Gudoy (2xs)
Abe Simon (2xs)
Billy Conn (2xs)
Tony Galento
Tommy Farr
Johnny Paycheck
Lou Nova
John Henry Lewis
Max Schmeling
Bob Pastor
Tami Mauriello
Tony Musto
Gus Dorazio
Red Burman
Al McCoy
Jack Roper
Harry Thomas
Nathan Mann

_____________________________

Outside of Schmeling, Conn and Walcott you can argue that everyone else of the 25 title defenses of "The Brown Bomber" were the worst of the worst in the history of the Heavyweight title picture.

Well you could, but it would be a very bad argument.
Pastor, Nova, Baer, and Farr were all very good fighters. Godoy and Simon were legitimate title defenses.

Although mostly a light Heavyweight John Henry Lewis was a damn good fighter.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑29 Jun 2018, 20:28 Although mostly a light Heavyweight John Henry Lewis was a damn good fighter.

He was blind in one eye when Louis fought him. Was clearly done as a favor to him to have one last payday. They were good friends

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Jun 2018, 10:35 Well you could, but it would be a very bad argument.
Pastor, Nova, Baer, and Farr were all very good fighters. Godoy and Simon were legitimate title defenses.

Farr and Gudoy I can agree with you on. Buddy Baer was essentially a manufactured contender fighting nothing but stiffs. Nova was good but he could be out fought by physically inferior opponents (ie Galento) despite Nova being 6'4". Simon was essentially a hulk and little else. I don't know much on Pastor, but, considering he's seldom talked about in all the years I've ever been here he couldn't have been THAT legit.

Baer was not a manufactured contender. He was one of the top heavyweights of his day. He beat Galento, Simon, and Mann among others. He gave Louis some trouble in their first fight.
Just because people don't talk about Pastor much anymore doesn't mean he was n't good. He was a very good boxer.
Nova drew with Pastor, beat Max Baer 2x and also beat Farr.

These guys were not legends by nay means. They had their ups and downs. But there certainly have been many, many fighters who got titles shots who were worse.