BoxRec

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 - I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 - I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 never held the WBO or IBO

littlepug wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:33

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 - I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

Stopped reading as soon as you mentioned the IBO, lost all credibility there dude.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:34

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 - I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

I'd be interested in seeing your top 20 heavyweights. I could never think of 19 that could possibly be ahead of Holmes

tiny_acres wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:34

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 - I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

I'd be interested in seeing your top 20 heavyweights. I could never think of 19 that could possibly be ahead of Holmes

Matt W wrote: ↑29 Jun 2018, 05:19 Lewis did hold the IBO title. Not that anybody cared except Lewis and the OP,

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑29 Jun 2018, 11:42 - And how did I know this faint hearted bunch couldn't man up to the match up I proposed?

Easy, you lot tend to reflect your faint hearted, insecure fighters not wanting to fight the best. I already posted my top 10 heavy list in the well perused poll of top 10 divisional greats not so long ago, and including Lewis that's an easy 11 I rank over Lar. I'll let you genii figure the other 8.

Yes, I do stand corrected on the IBO belt, but back to the point I was making, Lewis never defended his unified belts and Wlad did. He could've held the WBC when Vitali retired had they just sparred an exhibition for over $100 mil for the passing of the torch, but they ain't frauds like too many of your lot support in boxing.

Let's not forget Vitali traveled to America to drum up and Field or Tyson fight to no avail. Both held the WBO titles and top rated on boxrec and Ring and fought tricky southpaw Chris Byrd who doesn't have a career that far removed from Lewis who gave up his IBF to avoid Byrd. Vitali had to sue Lewis 3x for a bout, and Lewis finally responded by giving him a title shot with 2 weeks notice after Lewis had been in prolonged training for 3 months. He needed an all time cut he exacerbated by rubbing his braids into Vitali's eyes in the clinches before grabbing his noggin to pull down for a half dozen uppercuts to further enhance the stoppage, some of the most blatant dirty tricks witnessed in a title fight.

Look, I don't think much of either as sentient human beings, but I do rate Lewis fairly high, so I'm not the type to let personal feelings influence my rating of a fighter. All I know is the bottom line with Holmes, a 1-5 record against standing champs holding a title, and he didn't beat that 1, Norton. He ran from the lucrative rematch after making $300 K for that fight he was such an unknown nothing. He said he'd rematch Norton or fight Young, but he never did. Shameless!

Facts are as the Ks rose up the ranks, the Brits and Yanks fled for the duration, something never seen before in the previous manly eras of boxing!

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑28 Jun 2018, 12:12 never held the WBO or IBO