BoxRec

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 10:17**

ESPN's Nigel Collins have put together a list...

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Gennady Golovkin
3. Canelo Alvarez
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Kelly Pavlik
6. Jermain Taylor
7. Daniel Jacobs
8. Billy Joe Saunders
9. Arthur Abraham
10. Jermall Charlo
-----------------------
I'm not sure what he's basing this off, can't just be accomplishments..

GGG--------------------LAST 5 FIGHTS--------------------CANELO
33--------------------------Rounds-------------------------------51
55.6--------------Punches thrown per round----------------------42.8
20.4--------------Punches landed per round-----------------------15.2
44.1-------Punches thrown by opponent per round-----------------43.2
14.2-------Punches landed by opponent per round------------------11.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 11:20**

It seems a little strange to exclude names from yesteryear, such as Felix Sturm, Daniel Geale and William Joppy, whilst including the likes of 2018 boxers, such as Jermall Charlo, Billy Joe Saunders and Daniel Jacobs, who are less accomplished fighters (either in terms of championship bouts or the amount of times they’ve appeared on the annual top-ten world ratings since the year 2000).

Technically-speaking, Bernard Hopkins’ is slightly more accomplished than Gennady Golovkin.

And Canelo hasn’t achieved very much at 160lbs, barring his victories over Miguel Cotto and Amir Khan, which allowed the Mexican to capture The RING, the WBC and also the lineal championships by defeating opposition that weren't considered legitimate middleweights.

Howard Eastman was universally regarded as a genuine top-ten world-rated 160lb-er for six years, but for some strange reason, Nigel Collins rates Jermall Charlo above him, despite the fact the American has achieved absolutely nothing at all at middleweight (i.e. only two victories over less than stellar opposition – Heiland and Centeno Jr).

It's actually easy to argue that Sebastian Sylvester is far more accomplished at 160lbs than Jermall Charlo, considering the fact the German had engaged in six world middleweight title bouts, a former world champ at the weight, coupled with being rated amongst The RING’s top-ten annual rankings for six consecutive years between 2005 until 2010!

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:22**

It's a reasonable list. Abraham has definitely accomplished more than Saunders and Jacobs. Sturm arguably has a spot reserved on here. I can see how someone could believe that, on ability, Jacobs is better than Abraham, and Charlo is better than Sturm.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:26**

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 11:20 It seems a little strange to exclude names from yesteryear, such as Felix Sturm, Daniel Geale and William Joppy, whilst including the likes of 2018 boxers, such as Jermall Charlo, Billy Joe Saunders and Daniel Jacobs, who are less accomplished fighters (either in terms of championship bouts or the amount of times they’ve appeared on the annual top-ten world ratings since the year 2000).

I was also confused with this..

If Hopkins is included in this list, technically he was only a MW from what 2000-2005?

The list does state 21st Century, which began in 2000..

How he included Hopkins, but like you say miss out Sturm, Geale etc, but then reverse and add Jermall? Don't know what he's thinking.

Martin Murray deserves a spot more than Jermall.

Also, if anything, Cotto achieved just as much fighting at catchweight MW fights than Canelo did.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:28**

Lackeos wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:22 It's a reasonable list. Abraham has definitely accomplished more than Saunders and Jacobs. Sturm arguably has a spot reserved on here. I can see how someone could believe that, on ability, Jacobs is better than Abraham, and Charlo is better than Sturm.

Yeh, ability you could always argue.

Abraham I would rank higher, but in the article, Collins has stated how he mostly fought in Germany and many outside of Germany viewed him as a 'protected fighter'.. Also the fact that he had questionable gift decisions from judges.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:31**

Weird list. Hard to find any logic in this list. Charlo, really?? Sturm deserves the spot.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:26
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 11:20 It seems a little strange to exclude names from yesteryear, such as Felix Sturm, Daniel Geale and William Joppy, whilst including the likes of 2018 boxers, such as Jermall Charlo, Billy Joe Saunders and Daniel Jacobs, who are less accomplished fighters (either in terms of championship bouts or the amount of times they’ve appeared on the annual top-ten world ratings since the year 2000).
I was also confused with this..

If Hopkins is included in this list, technically he was only a MW from what 2000-2005?

The list does state 21st Century, which began in 2000..

How he included Hopkins, but like you say miss out Sturm, Geale etc, but then reverse and add Jermall? Don't know what he's thinking.

Martin Murray deserves a spot more than Jermall.

Also, if anything, Cotto achieved just as much fighting at catchweight MW fights than Canelo did.

21st century began in 2001.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:34**

Lackeos wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:22 It's a reasonable list. Abraham has definitely accomplished more than Saunders and Jacobs. Sturm arguably has a spot reserved on here. I can see how someone could believe that, on ability, Jacobs is better than Abraham, and Charlo is better than Sturm.

We shouldn’t really use “who beats whom” as the criteria to determine the “best” or the “greatest fighters” of a particular century, because if that was the case, then someone like Wladimir Klitschko would be considered amongst the top five heavyweight boxers of the 20th century, due to the fact he’s about 50lbs heavier than the likes of Joe Louis.

Also, neither Jacobs nor Charlo have ever won a legitimate world championship fight at 160lbs. And I think you’d struggle to list more than one genuine top-ten world-rated middleweight opponent that they’ve actually defeated. So, you can’t really place them above certain names based on unfulfilled “potential”.

In several years time, hindsight may eventually prove your opinion to be “right”... and I have no doubt that you probably will be, but in terms of what we “know” today, Jacobs and Charlo haven’t achieved very much at middleweight.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:39**

i like charlo a lot but pretty strange to have him there atm, his best mw win is like jorge heiland ffs! and yet collins bags on the accomplishments of others

and he discredits sturm for not travelling, yet geale unified titles on the road and gets no spot

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:45**

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:34
Lackeos wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:22 Also, neither Jacobs nor Charlo have never won a legitimate world championship fight at 160lbs. And I think you’d struggle to list more than one genuine top-ten world-rated middleweight opponent that they’ve actually defeated. So, you can’t really place them above certain names based on unfulfilled “potential”.

In several years time, hindsight may eventually prove your opinion to be “right”... and I have no doubt that you probably will be, but in terms of what we “know” today, Jacobs and Charlo haven’t achieved very much at middleweight.
Yeh, this should mostly be on accomplishments and obviously who else was around their time..

Jacobs just has Peter Quillin, he was definitely ranked top 10 MW at the time, was he not? Maybe even top 5..

Sergio Mora, I don't believe was ever ranked highly.

Like you said, there isn't anyone else though.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:46**

jamamb wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:39 i like charlo a lot but pretty strange to have him there atm, his best mw win is like jorge heiland ffs! and yet collins bags on the accomplishments of others

and he discredits Sturm for not travelling, yet Geale unified titles on the road and gets no spot

Abraham hardly traveled and he's ranked..

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 12:57**

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:46
jamamb wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:39 i like charlo a lot but pretty strange to have him there atm, his best mw win is like jorge heiland ffs! and yet collins bags on the accomplishments of others

and he discredits Sturm for not travelling, yet Geale unified titles on the road and gets no spot
Abraham hardly traveled and he's ranked..

To be fair, Arthur Abraham was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for four consecutive years between 2005 until 2008, won all eleven of his IBF world middleweight championship bouts and is also unbeaten at the weight.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 13:00**

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:57
To be fair, Arthur Abraham was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for four consecutive years between 2005 until 2008, won all eleven of his IBF world middleweight championship bouts and is also unbeaten at the weight.

Yeh. you're right. I forgot we're looking at MW and not SMW.. lol

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 13:04**

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 13:00
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:57
To be fair, Arthur Abraham was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for four consecutive years between 2005 until 2008, won all eleven of his IBF world middleweight championship bouts and is also unbeaten at the weight.
Yeh. you're right. I forgot we're looking at MW and not SMW.. lol

When you compare Abraham’s resume to the other names included amongst the so-called “Best Middleweight Fighters of the 21st Century”, then this kind of makes a mockery of Nigel Collins’ list, because Daniel Jacobs and Billy Joe Saunders have not “achieved” more at the weight than the German resident.

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 19:15**

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 10:17 ESPN's Nigel Collins have put together a list...

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Gennady Golovkin
3. Canelo Alvarez
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Kelly Pavlik
6. Jermain Taylor
7. Daniel Jacobs
8. Billy Joe Saunders
9. Arthur Abraham
10. Jermall Charlo
-----------------------
I'm not sure what he's basing this off, can't just be accomplishments..

GGG--------------------LAST 5 FIGHTS--------------------CANELO
33--------------------------Rounds-------------------------------51
55.6--------------Punches thrown per round----------------------42.8
20.4--------------Punches landed per round-----------------------15.2
44.1-------Punches thrown by opponent per round-----------------43.2
14.2-------Punches landed by opponent per round------------------11.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good data

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 20:02**

I guess if you include all Canelo's fights at 155lb he belongs on the list, but not if we're talking about fights at the full middleweight limit (which we should be). Here's my list:

1. Hopkins
2. Golovkin
3. Martinez
4. Pavlik
5. Taylor
6. Jacobs
7. Abraham
8. Geale
9. Saunders
10. Sturm

Posted: **11 Sep 2018, 20:25**

It's really weird for him to have Canelo so high on the list when a better argument could be made for not having Canelo on the list at all as others have pointed out.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 03:10**

jamamb wrote: ↑11 Sep 2018, 12:39 i like charlo a lot but pretty strange to have him there atm, his best mw win is like jorge heiland ffs! and yet collins bags on the accomplishments of others

and he discredits sturm for not travelling, yet geale unified titles on the road and gets no spot

Sturm gets discredited for not travelling but how many US fighters travel? Also when Sturm did travel to the US to fight De La Hoya he was robbed blind! Daresay that soured his outlook on fighting there again.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 04:17**

Felix Sturm is a four-time world champion at 160lbs, was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for eleven consecutive years between 2003 until 2013 and he also participated in 21 world middleweight title fights (losing only four of them).

The German avenged one of those losses (against Javier Castillejo), whilst another was deemed as being a blatant hometown robbery (against Oscar De La Hoya, with the bout staged in Las Vegas).

Nigel Collins tries to discredit Sturm’s world title reigns based on the fact that the German rarely travelled overseas, but how many times did the likes of the following fighters included in his very own list venture outside their home countries for their own world championship fights at middleweight or 160lbs bouts: Bernard Hopkins; Kelly Pavlik; Jermain Taylor; Daniel Jacobs; Billy Joe Saunders; and Jermall Charlo?

Let’s take a look at a couple of other names that I mentioned earlier in this thread that Nigel Collins failed to include in his list…

• Daniel Geale engaged in eight world middleweight title fights and was also listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for eight consecutive years between 2008 until 2015.

• William Joppy is a three-time world champion at 160lbs, engaged in fourteen world middleweight title fights (losing only three of them), was listed amongst The RING's top-ten 160lb-ers for five consecutive years between 2000 until 2004 and his resume is littered with big-name world champion calibre opponents.

If we're evaluating Nigel Collins' list based on accomplishment rather than unfulfilled potential, then there are three names that he should not have listed, such as: Jermall Charlo, Billy Joe Saunders and Daniel Jacobs.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 05:05**

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 04:17
Nigel Collins tries to discredit Sturm’s world title reigns based on the fact that the German rarely travelled overseas, but how many times did the likes of the following fighters included in his very own list venture outside their home countries for their own world championship fights at middleweight or 160lbs bouts: Bernard Hopkins; Kelly Pavlik; Jermain Taylor; Daniel Jacobs; Billy Joe Saunders; and Jermall Charlo?

I agree with everything you have said.. But BJS will be making his 2nd consecutive defence abroad. Obviously it wouldn't have been consecutive if he had fought Murray.. But still..

He's mostly fighting abroad because his promoter couldn't afford the fight in the UK.. Who knows.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 05:17**

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 05:05
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 04:17
Nigel Collins tries to discredit Sturm’s world title reigns based on the fact that the German rarely travelled overseas, but how many times did the likes of the following fighters included in his very own list venture outside their home countries for their own world championship fights at middleweight or 160lbs bouts: Bernard Hopkins; Kelly Pavlik; Jermain Taylor; Daniel Jacobs; Billy Joe Saunders; and Jermall Charlo?

I agree with everything you have said.. But BJS will be making his 2nd consecutive defence abroad. Obviously it wouldn't have been consecutive if he had fought Murray.. But still..

He's mostly fighting abroad because his promoter couldn't afford the fight in the UK.. Who knows.

I’m evaluating Billy Joe Saunders’ resume based on what he has actually achieved to-date, rather than what he may potentially accomplish in the future.

The Brit has only ever competed outside the UK once and the Demetrius Andrade bout hasn’t taken place yet.

I’ll congratulate Billy Joe if he manages to successfully defend his world title against Demetrius Andrade in the US next month, but it’s premature at this point in time to award him any kudos for this.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 05:44**

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 05:17 I’m evaluating Billy Joe Saunders’ resume based on what he has actually achieved to-date, rather than what he may potentially accomplish in the future.

The Brit has only ever competed outside the UK once and the Demetrius Andrade bout hasn’t taken place yet.

I’ll congratulate Billy Joe if he manages to successfully defend his world title against Demetrius Andrade in the US next month, but it’s premature at this point in time to award him any kudos for this.

I understand what you;re saying.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 06:10**

Charlo should be a million miles away from this list based on current achievements.

Canelo shouldn't be on there either, 155 lbs is not the middleweight limit.

Not sure how you could have Hopkins above Taylor when Taylor beat Hopkins twice.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 06:13**

keirw wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 06:10 Charlo should be a million miles away from this list based on current achievements.

Canelo shouldn't be on there either, 155 lbs is not the middleweight limit.

Not sure how you could have Hopkins above Taylor when Taylor beat Hopkins twice.

Overall though, that's just about all Taylor did.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 06:56**

keirw wrote: ↑12 Sep 2018, 06:10Not sure how you could have Hopkins above Taylor when Taylor beat Hopkins twice.

Bernard “The Executioner” Hopkins successfully competed in 21 middleweight world title fights between 1994 & 2004 and had defeated the following world champions:

• Oscar De La Hoya
• William Joppy
• Carl Daniels
• Felix Trinidad
• Keith Holmes
• Simon Brown
• Glen Johnson
• John David Jackson

Bernard, a relative novice, had also previously fought and lost the great Roy Jones Jr. in 1993, which was his very first world title fight and he was fairly competitive in that bout. This was a defeat that he eventually avenged.

Hopkins faced John David Jackson at a catch-weight, weighing only 156½lbs. Bernard also agreed to compete against De La Hoya at a catch-weight, weighing 156lbs.

Bernard Hopkins was also the very first fighter to ever unify all four main versions of the world middleweight title.

In stark contrast, Jermain Taylor defeated a version of Hopkins that was in his forties and who’s body had outgrown the middleweight division.

And let’s not forget that both of Taylor’s victories over the aging Hopkins were razor thin, with some journalists disputing the official verdicts of the judges.

The next three opponents Taylor faced during the course of his title defences weren’t legitimate middleweights (i.e. Ronald 'Winky' Wright, Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks) and he only managed to beat two of them.

Jermaine Taylor then lost his belts when he was destroyed within seven rounds by Kelly Pavlik. However, he did manage to regain one of the middleweight titles he previously owned, five years later, when he outpointed the 41 year old veteran Sam Soliman.

Posted: **12 Sep 2018, 15:35**

1. Hopkins
2. Golovkin
3. Martinez
4. Pavlik
5. Abraham
6. Taylor
7. Canelo
8. Pirog
9. Saunders
10. Jacobs

After GGG-Canelo II in a case of someone winning it changes for sure. Golovkin will arguably be better, than Hopkins, if he wins. Canelo will be #2 after Hopkins, if he wins.

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