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Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:10
by leejonesjnr
I watched the first fight and thought Alvarez had it by two rounds but essentially was happy with a draw as it was a close and competitive contest.
Largely, I believe, due to the ridiculous scoring of one judge the fight is (IMO wrongly) remembered as Golovkin being robbed.
I am a big fan of both men and don't really care who wins, but will the judges automatically give any close rounds to Golovkin?
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:19
by samwbr
Golovkin is getting stiffed again unless he stops him.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:29
by leejonesjnr
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:19
Golovkin is getting stiffed again unless he stops him.
Do you think that the judge who scored close to GGG and the judge who scored a draw were also dreadful?
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:31
by samwbr
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:29
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:19
Golovkin is getting stiffed again unless he stops him.
Do you think that the judge who scored close to GGG and the judge who scored a draw were also dreadful?
The draw and the Alvarez card were shocking, Golovkin won 8 rounds of that fight IMO.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:35
by leejonesjnr
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:31
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:29
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:19
Golovkin is getting stiffed again unless he stops him.
Do you think that the judge who scored close to GGG and the judge who scored a draw were also dreadful?
The draw and the Alvarez card were shocking, Golovkin won 8 rounds of that fight IMO.
Then surely you thought all 3 cards were a disgrace? The judge who though Golovkin won disagrees with you by 6 rounds.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:36
by Datsue
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:10
I watched the first fight and thought Alvarez had it by two rounds but essentially was happy with a draw as it was a close and competitive contest.
Largely, I believe, due to the ridiculous scoring of one judge the fight is (IMO wrongly) remembered as Golovkin being robbed.
I am a big fan of both men and don't really care who wins, but will the judges automatically give any close rounds to Golovkin?
He got a draw vs Mayweather—where he lost ten rounds—& you're worried that scoring might be biased
against him? The Cotto fight was much narrower than the cards had it, he lost four rounds vs Khan & was inexplicably ahead in the scoring, Lara ran him close & he didn't lose there & one judge had him winning ten rounds vs GGG...
Is this post evidence of a crossover from an alternate reality? Who's president of the USA there? Is it O.J. Simpson? I bet it's O. J. Simpson. Or Benny from Crossroads.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:38
by samwbr
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:35
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:31
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:29
Do you think that the judge who scored close to GGG and the judge who scored a draw were also dreadful?
The draw and the Alvarez card were shocking, Golovkin won 8 rounds of that fight IMO.
Then surely you thought all 3 cards were a disgrace? The judge who though Golovkin won disagrees with you by 6 rounds.
The result was a joke, judges had shockers. I'm not expecting a fair go for Golovkin this time around.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:39
by Datsue
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:35
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:31
The draw and the Alvarez card were shocking, Golovkin won 8 rounds of that fight IMO.
Then surely you thought all 3 cards were a disgrace? The judge who though Golovkin won disagrees with you by 6 rounds.
The judge who thought Golovkin won had it 7-5 for GGG, right? Sam just said he had eight for Golovkin.
Here on Earth One, that's one round different, not six. Your dimension seems really weird, dude.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:49
by leejonesjnr
Datsue wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:36
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:10
I watched the first fight and thought Alvarez had it by two rounds but essentially was happy with a draw as it was a close and competitive contest.
Largely, I believe, due to the ridiculous scoring of one judge the fight is (IMO wrongly) remembered as Golovkin being robbed.
I am a big fan of both men and don't really care who wins, but will the judges automatically give any close rounds to Golovkin?
He got a draw vs Mayweather—where he lost ten rounds—& you're worried that scoring might be biased
against him? The Cotto fight was much narrower than the cards had it, he lost four rounds vs Khan & was inexplicably ahead in the scoring, Lara ran him close & he didn't lose there & one judge had him winning ten rounds vs GGG...
Is this post evidence of a crossover from an alternate reality? Who's president of the USA there? Is it O.J. Simpson? I bet it's O. J. Simpson. Or Benny from Crossroads.
I'm not worried at all in any way about the scoring for either man, it just occurs to me that given the perception that Alvarez is looked after and the chatter regarding the first contest that judges may be looking for any opportunity to give Golovkin points.
The one bizarre scorecard from the first contest is why this is a topic for discussion and why people remember the first fight much differently to the fight that actually took place.
Not relevant to this discussion but I believe that Khan won all 4 completed rounds against Alvarez.
Cotto was competitive but behind most of the time so the scoring there I thought was fine.
Alvarez didn't get a draw, he lost against Mayweather. The contest is scored by 3 judges to get a result, or do you also say that De La Hoya won against Mayweather?
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:52
by leejonesjnr
Datsue wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:39
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:35
samwbr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:31
The draw and the Alvarez card were shocking, Golovkin won 8 rounds of that fight IMO.
Then surely you thought all 3 cards were a disgrace? The judge who though Golovkin won disagrees with you by 6 rounds.
The judge who thought Golovkin won had it 7-5 for GGG, right? Sam just said he had eight for Golovkin.
Here on Earth One, that's one round different, not six. Your dimension seems really weird, dude.
Indeed, I misread 'won 8 rounds' as 'won by 8 rounds'.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:57
by samwbr
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:49
Datsue wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:36
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:10
I watched the first fight and thought Alvarez had it by two rounds but essentially was happy with a draw as it was a close and competitive contest.
Largely, I believe, due to the ridiculous scoring of one judge the fight is (IMO wrongly) remembered as Golovkin being robbed.
I am a big fan of both men and don't really care who wins, but will the judges automatically give any close rounds to Golovkin?
He got a draw vs Mayweather—where he lost ten rounds—& you're worried that scoring might be biased
against him? The Cotto fight was much narrower than the cards had it, he lost four rounds vs Khan & was inexplicably ahead in the scoring, Lara ran him close & he didn't lose there & one judge had him winning ten rounds vs GGG...
Is this post evidence of a crossover from an alternate reality? Who's president of the USA there? Is it O.J. Simpson? I bet it's O. J. Simpson. Or Benny from Crossroads.
I'm not worried at all in any way about the scoring for either man, it just occurs to me that given the perception that Alvarez is looked after and the chatter regarding the first contest that judges may be looking for any opportunity to give Golovkin points.
The one bizarre scorecard from the first contest is why this is a topic for discussion and why people remember the first fight much differently to the fight that actually took place.
Not relevant to this discussion but I believe that Khan won all 4 completed rounds against Alvarez.
Cotto was competitive but behind most of the time so the scoring there I thought was fine.
Alvarez didn't get a draw, he lost against Mayweather. The contest is scored by 3 judges to get a result, or do you also say that De La Hoya won against Mayweather?
Alvarez got a draw on one of the cards v Mayweather, it was a farce. It's clear what is going on when he fights in Vegas.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:02
by TheLeprechaun
I also had canelo winning the first fight.
People are bad at scoring fights and the narrative clouds judgement. Many feel Fury schooled Wlad. Rewatch the fight and score the rounds (if you can stay awake). The canelo GGG fight was similar in ways to groves eubank. People will score gggs pressure and call it a robbery but say eubanj got schooled (I agreed with the 115-113 card for groves). You either score it one way or not. I like boxers showing good defensive work and i dont blindly score aggression with punches missed, Which is why I liked groves and canelo respectively. Canelo did a lot better than Eubank though. Put GGG into Eubanks body and repeat the exact same fight between Groves and Eubank and you'd have many calling it a robbery and saying GGG deserved the decision.
So many times we see fights where you have one fighter being aggressive but not that effective and being made to miss vs a fighter who is a boxer, hitting and moving and maybe landing less but showing better skills evading shots and countering. In those close fights you can't change your scoring style because you are just showing your bias if you do. Those posters, and there are a few regulars on here who do this, are pretty easy to spot. Autobarn is one poster who will always score these fights to the aggressive fighter to be fair.
As for the scoring, Canelo is the golden boy, he will still get the benefit of doubt.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:08
by jamamb
canelo getting generous cards in the past has hardly led to some backlash against him from judges.....more like pretty much every questionable card has still been in his favour
10 rounds vs trout, draw vs floyd, 11 rounds vs cotto, 9 rounds vs lara, 10 rounds vs ggg, 4 of 5 rounds vs khan
id still be more expecting any bias to be for canelo
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:09
by Counter-puncher
Datsue wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:36
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:10
I watched the first fight and thought Alvarez had it by two rounds but essentially was happy with a draw as it was a close and competitive contest.
Largely, I believe, due to the ridiculous scoring of one judge the fight is (IMO wrongly) remembered as Golovkin being robbed.
I am a big fan of both men and don't really care who wins, but will the judges automatically give any close rounds to Golovkin?
He got a draw vs Mayweather—where he lost ten rounds—& you're worried that scoring might be biased
against him?
I wouldn't be surprised if GGG
did get some make-up scoring. "He takes the second, and the third fight's on the up&up, kid"
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:11
by Counter-puncher
jamamb wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 05:08
canelo getting generous cards in the past has hardly led to some backlash against him from judges.....more like pretty much every questionable card has been in his favour
sure, but Canelo has never been in a position where a 2nd/3rd fight would make loads of money. I still wouldn't be on GGG getting a fair shake but would cards that lead to a trilogy/decider totally surprise you?
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:13
by jamamb
well neither has beat the other yet, and in fact if the perceptions that ggg did really win the first time, wouldnt it be canelo levelling it up?
i dont think canelo losing is the power position
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:17
by jamamb
TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 05:02
I also had canelo winning the first fight.
People are bad at scoring fights and the narrative clouds judgement. Many feel Fury schooled Wlad. Rewatch the fight and score the rounds (if you can stay awake). The canelo GGG fight was similar in ways to groves eubank. People will score gggs pressure and call it a robbery but say eubanj got schooled (I agreed with the 115-113 card for groves). You either score it one way or not. I like boxers showing good defensive work and i dont blindly score aggression with punches missed, Which is why I liked groves and canelo respectively. Canelo did a lot better than Eubank though. Put GGG into Eubanks body and repeat the exact same fight between Groves and Eubank and you'd have many calling it a robbery and saying GGG deserved the decision.
So many times we see fights where you have one fighter being aggressive but not that effective and being made to miss vs a fighter who is a boxer, hitting and moving and maybe landing less but showing better skills evading shots and countering. In those close fights you can't change your scoring style because you are just showing your bias if you do. Those posters, and there are a few regulars on here who do this, are pretty easy to spot. Autobarn is one poster who will always score these fights to the aggressive fighter to be fair.
As for the scoring, Canelo is the golden boy, he will still get the benefit of doubt.
mate, you have an obvious bias to score based on your predictions
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:18
by Counter-puncher
who needs a power position? don't the promoters just want a situation where they can make $$$$ doing the same thing one more time rather than it finishing and Canelo makes less $$$$ whoever he fights next? unless he wants to go high risk low reward against a Charlo, or whatever, what are the $$$ options for him beyond GGG at the moment?
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:22
by jamamb
why does ggg winning make it a 3rd fight when most thought he already won? if anything canelo winning makes more sense to have a 3rd as some decider.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:26
by Counter-puncher
jamamb wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 05:22
why does ggg winning make it a 3rd fight when most thought he already won?
most people thought barrera won the first vs Morales
then he got the win on the cards for the 2nd
did people then turn round and say 'ah well he won both fights no need for a third?
or di they choose to make lots of money with a third fight?
cards > perception in whether a trilogy happens IMO
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:29
by jamamb
the cards in no way lean toward ggg winning though, the first fight was a draw, not a canelo w that needs to be evened by a ggg win
canelo wins, and you can still do a 3rd if its competitive, and then the cash cow mega star has a huge win rather then a loss
axcounting for that , and the continued trend of canelo getting most of the benefits of the doubt, i would defo guess if one guys gonna get it in the rematch it will be the red one
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:33
by Terry Dooley
The officials will lean towards Canelo and if he wins there is unlikely to be a third fight. He will say that GGG doesn't deserve it due to disrespecting him, i.e. calling him out on cheating, in the build-up to this one. Alvarez will go down in history as one of the more forgettable "greats" and the only people who will remember him will be the time travelling aliens who try to use the scorecard from the Mayweather fight as some kind of algorithm to help them figure out how to save their dying planet.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:34
by Datsue
Terry Dooley wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 05:33
The officials will lean towards Canelo and if he wins there is unlikely to be a third fight. He will say that GGG doesn't deserve it due to disrespecting him, i.e. calling him out on cheating, in the build-up to this one. Alvarez will go down in history as one of the more forgettable "greats" and the only people who will remember him will be the time travelling aliens who try to use the scorecard from the Mayweather fight as some kind of algorithm to help them figure out how to save their dying planet.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 05:55
by Datsue
Though I have to admit C-P's mention of the Barrera-Morales trilogy also makes me think there may be some merit in the "Let's spin this out for a trilogy" idea, & for that I suppose I should apologise to Lee as his idea of a thread may just hold some water & doesn't appear as utterly batshit as the idea first struck me.
Even though I'd be genuinely surprised were this to happen in this instance as GGG's obviously on the slide (slowing down for years now, he wasted his early career fighting nobodies & pressure fighters >35 don't exactly have a rosy future) & Canelo's the big draw here, not the Kazakh.
Re: Will the Alvarez v Golovkin scoring be fair to Alvarez?
Posted: 13 Sep 2018, 06:00
by Datsue
leejonesjnr wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018, 04:49
Alvarez didn't get a draw, he lost against Mayweather. The contest is scored by 3 judges to get a result, or do you also say that De La Hoya won against Mayweather?
No, I don't say that DLH won against Mayweather; what happened there was the most popular bankable fighter in the world got the benefit of a dodgy scorecard in a fight he definitely didn't win.
Which if you change the names, reminds me eerily of this fight!
If Mayweather & DLH fought again, though, I wouldn't go around hand-wringing going "Well perhaps Mayweather will stand to benefit in the scoring even if he loses 'cos one judge was blind the other way last time", which it seems to me is what you're going on about.