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This could be a nice discussion.

Can we name the 10 greatest British boxers of all time in ranking order. I’ll give a few examples in alphabetical order and see what the general consensus is:-

1) Andries, Denis
2) Bellew, Tony
3) Benn, Nigel
4) Berg, Ted “Kid”
5) Brook, Kell
6) Bruno, Frank
7) Buchanen, Ken
8) Burns, Ricky
9) Calzaghe, Joe
10) Cleverly, Nathen
11) Cooper, Henry
12) Conteh, John
13) Degale, James
14) Eubank, Chris
15) Fitzsimmons, Bob
16) Frampton, Carl
17) Froch, Carl
18) Fury, Tyson
19) Groves, George
20) Hamed, Naseem
21) Harrison, Scott
22) Hatton, Ricky
23) Haye, David
24) Hide, Herbie
25) Honeyghan, Lloyd
26) Joshua, Anthony
27) Khan, Amir
28) Lewis, Lennox
29) Lewis, Ted “Kid”
30) Magri, Charlie
31) McCulloch, Wayne
32) McGuigan, Barry
33) McKenzie, Duke
34) Minter, Alan
35) Nelson, Johnny
36) Stracey, John H
37) Thompson, Carl
38) Turpin, Randolph
39) Watt, Jim
40) Wilde, Jimmy

Honourable mentions to:-

Darren Barker, Billy Conn, Herol Graham, Scott Quigg, Enzo Maccarinelli, Jamie McDonnell, Colin McMillan, Steve Robinson, Michael Watson, Richie Woodhall who probably would have all made the cut if I did a top 50.

I know there are more ex-world champs I have left out but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Thoughts?

I'm going to do this later, but leaving out the old timers because my knowledge is limited, and also the current crop, the likes of AJ and Fury haven't shown how good, or bad they are yet, their defining fights are ahead

Also I would rate Colin Jones and Herol Graham above some on the list, Sibson too

Also to find a balance between achievement and how good they were

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Carl Froch
5. Ken Buchanan
6. David Haye
7. Lloyd Honeyghan
8. Jimmy Wilde
9. Nigel Benn
10. Naseem Hamed

Coco wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:30 I'm going to do this later, but leaving out the old timers because my knowledge is limited, and also the current crop, the likes of AJ and Fury haven't shown how good, or bad they are yet, their defining fights are ahead

The question is whether what they have already done warrants inclusion? Both Fury and Joshua are unbeaten and both won 3 of the 4 heavyweight straps.

We went over 100 years without a heavyweight champion from Britain at one point not so long ago

Great list there and some very good British boxers.

Looking at the list in a general public point of view I'm going to guess Frank Bruno would come top.

I'll be very surprised if Alan Minter makes the top ten. While a decent middleweight in his time he is quite over rated as a British great.

One boxer I'm not a great fan of myself was Joe Calzaghe but he achieved as a boxer and has to make the top 5.

I don't think Tyson Fury is a top 10 great so he can be easily dismissed. Nigel Benn has to make top 10 along with Carl Froch and Naseem Hamed along with Lennox Lewis.

It's quite hard to try and put a top 10 together so I'm going to sit on the fence but my few picks are very good candidates.

I'll go 1) Calzaghe, 2) Lewis, 3) Wilde.... Then it all gets very messy!

Kilsby wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:44

Coco wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:30 I'm going to do this later, but leaving out the old timers because my knowledge is limited, and also the current crop, the likes of AJ and Fury haven't shown how good, or bad they are yet, their defining fights are ahead

The question is whether what they have already done warrants inclusion? Both Fury and Joshua are unbeaten and both won 3 of the 4 heavyweight straps.

We went over 100 years without a heavyweight champion from Britain at one point not so long ago

Fair point

Very hard list to make because the real golden era's of British Boxing were about 100 years ago and the resurgence of the last 15-20 years so we have more footage which means we have more content to rate them but also more to nitpick them so you really have to respect what's in the history books and trust what others said about them. For example Gene Tunney once said Jimmy Wilde was the greatest fighter he's ever seen not to mention what keen historians of that were around to see them and following generations.

Some technicalities too. Is Bob Fitzsimmons English? He was born there but grew up in New Zealand then turned pro in Australia before moving to America and settling there. I guess count him because he's English born?

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ted "Kid" Lewis
4. Jack "Kid" Berg
5. Jim Driscoll
6. Joe Calzaghe
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Benny Lynch
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Ken Buchanan

Owen Moran would probably be the best of the rest historically speaking and of the post-war fighters it's probably Naseem Hamed but honestly Carl Frampton, Nigel Benn and Carl Froch are very close to him IMO. Frampton could be a win or two away. None of them are close to the guys in the top 10 though. I think that's a solid 10 with space only for Moran if you don't consider Fitzsimmons to be British.

Coco wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:30 I'm going to do this later, but leaving out the old timers because my knowledge is limited, and also the current crop, the likes of AJ and Fury haven't shown how good, or bad they are yet, their defining fights are ahead

Generally I leave current fighters out unless I am already viewing them as in their twilight years or seeing them as past their best. When Roy Jones was WBA Heavyweight champion and reigning unified Light Heavyweight champion I think many made the mistake of putting him top 10, top 10 in history and his world came crashing down next fight. Subsequent embarrassing losses probably caused people to underrate Jones.

Hopefully we'll know which direction we think Joshua and Fury are headed 12 months from now after some defining fights but for now they really shouldn't be ranked.

I know more titles are around nowadays, but on career achievements alone could Ricky Burns & Duke McKenzie not make a case for a top 10 inclusion based on the fact they are Britains only 3 weight world champions?

Or a case made for Ricky Hatton or Barry McGuigan considering they both beat there universally recognised number 1 in the division in Kostya Tszyu and Pedroza?

Kilsby wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 13:36 Or a case made for Ricky Hatton or Barry McGuigan considering they both beat there universally recognised number 1 in the division in Kostya Tszyu and Pedroza?

Kilsby wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 13:32 I know more titles are around nowadays, but on career achievements alone could Ricky Burns & Duke McKenzie not make a case for a top 10 inclusion based on the fact they are Britains only 3 weight world champions?

Re: Hatton and McGuigan I'd say no. They both had better wins than say, John Conteh but were a level below as a fighter and for me didn't have as good a career as he did. Randy Turpin was the second man to beat Sugar Ray Robinson so purely based on big wins he'd be over both but I still struggle seeing him in the top 10 basing on the quality of the fighter and strength of the resume. I also think the version of Donald Curry that Lloyd Honeyghan was better than the Tszyu and Pedroza they fought even though his career ended up nowhere near as good. All subjective I guess but when I'm rating fighters from similar era's/generations it's easier to gauge based on similar amounts of footage, similar amount of title available, standards for era etc;

A big NO on Burns. I'm not really impressed by "x amount of divisions" when that fighter hasn't unified or really proven to be the #1 in those divisions especially if the opposition is weaker. If it's weak then dominate at least one division. Someone like Broner has 4 divisional titles but is a blatantly average fighter with a weak list of opponents beaten. Burns is in that league though probably less talented. McKenzie was better but falls far short also IMO. Now if we came back in 50 years and it's not in the norm for fighters to win in multiple divisions then maybe I can see some valuing the achievement but I don't think it should be a big deal without unification or proper solidification as clear #1 in the division.

DrDuke wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:38 1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Carl Froch
5. Ken Buchanan
6. David Haye
7. Lloyd Honeyghan
8. Jimmy Wilde
9. Nigel Benn
10. Naseem Hamed

How can haye be above Jimmy Wilde.,...or Naz,honeyghan or benn

For me there are 3 obvious stand outs in Jimmy Wilde , Lennox Lewis and Joe calzaghe some would add Bob Fitzsimmons as well then there's Naz ,froch,conteh, honeyghan ,Benn,eubanks, Turpin maybe hatton could be there as well then maybe the likes of herol Graham , Michael Watson, Alan minter ken buccanon maybe .

paddy chavez wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 16:58

DrDuke wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:38 1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Carl Froch
5. Ken Buchanan
6. David Haye
7. Lloyd Honeyghan
8. Jimmy Wilde
9. Nigel Benn
10. Naseem Hamed

How can haye be above Jimmy Wilde.,...or Naz,honeyghan or benn

Exactly what i thought , don't think I'd even have him in the top 10

I don’t really have anything to add to the discussion, but I’m grateful of the initial list and some new names to look into

rd350lc wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 18:21

paddy chavez wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 16:58

DrDuke wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:38 1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Carl Froch
5. Ken Buchanan
6. David Haye
7. Lloyd Honeyghan
8. Jimmy Wilde
9. Nigel Benn
10. Naseem Hamed

How can haye be above Jimmy Wilde.,...or Naz,honeyghan or benn

Exactly what i thought , don't think I'd even have him in the top 10

I'm not making a case for Haye to be above Wilde but he did clean out the cruiserweight division, winning the European title and 3 of the straps (becoming the first man to achieve such a feat since Evander Holyfield 20 years previous) he then moved up to heavyweight and won world title there too.

Ultimately he came up short Vs Klitschko (the dominant champion of his era) but who didn't?

Do his credentials not merit lower top 10?

Kilsby wrote: ↑26 Sep 2018, 03:50

rd350lc wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 18:21

paddy chavez wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 16:58

How can haye be above Jimmy Wilde.,...or Naz,honeyghan or benn

Exactly what i thought , don't think I'd even have him in the top 10

I'm not making a case for Haye to be above Wilde but he did clean out the cruiserweight division, winning the European title and 3 of the straps (becoming the first man to achieve such a feat since Evander Holyfield 20 years previous) he then moved up to heavyweight and won world title there too.

Ultimately he came up short Vs Klitschko (the dominant champion of his era) but who didn't?

Do his credentials not merit lower top 10?

Personally I think Hayes achievements looked better on paper than they really are he was a very good cruiser but he never really beat anyone of note McCormack was solid rather than great he went up to heavy won a lightly regarded version of the belt against valuev then got convincingly beat the true champ wlad . I liked Haye but I think he wasted his career myself and I'd have hatton above him as well

Haye was real deal. First of all he was a talented boxer with excellent speed. He had a great career at the CWs, he's arguably #3 there in all time rankings after Holyfield and Usyk. He was a champion at the HW not in the best era, but still he defeated some top guys of those times and lost only to the leader of the division.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:54 1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ted "Kid" Lewis
4. Jack "Kid" Berg
5. Jim Driscoll
6. Joe Calzaghe
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Benny Lynch
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Ken Buchanan

Owen Moran would probably be the best of the rest historically speaking and of the post-war fighters it's probably Naseem Hamed

Agree with the top ten and the analysis. I'd have Benny Lynch higher in the top ten and Kid Berg lower but spot on really

dr_devious wrote: ↑26 Sep 2018, 11:17

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2018, 12:54 1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ted "Kid" Lewis
4. Jack "Kid" Berg
5. Jim Driscoll
6. Joe Calzaghe
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Benny Lynch
9. Freddie Welsh
10. Ken Buchanan

Owen Moran would probably be the best of the rest historically speaking and of the post-war fighters it's probably Naseem Hamed

Agree with the top ten and the analysis. I'd have Benny Lynch higher in the top ten and Kid Berg lower but spot on really

I think a case can be made for both those claims. I think anything after the top 3 from 4-9 is sort of interchangeable. Buchanan kind of being stuck in 10th far ahead of 11th though. I'd love to dig up more documentaries on some of these fighters. I remember seeing one on Welsh, Lynch and Wilde years ago but I can't seem to find the Wilde one. I know I had it on VHS many moons ago. I'd love to re-watch them. Any idea where they can be found online to purchase?

Obviously you don't expect to find much film on the likes of Wilde, "Kid" Lewis, Driscoll etc (I'd love to see Driscoll-Attell) but it's such a shame Buchanan fights are sparse especially some of his prime one's like the first Laguna fight because the second one is brilliant. I heard the BBC used to just wipe out film which is a pity. For what it's worth I think Buchanan could and would have been much higher but for Duran. That beating played a lot on him physically and mentally. I read his autobiography and a book he released in the 70's too. I saw Wilde released a couple too and the one released later in his life is available for around $50. I think I'll get that.

So hard to compare eras .

The one weight champion / eight weight division era versus the current era.

does the fact that Calazaghe and co fought in a watered down era where it was easier to have long reigns and clear out the division. I am using Calzaghe as an example because he is the easiest ... but he would have had to fight at light heavyweight and would have had to fight RJJ, Tarver, Dariusz in the late 90s early 00s which I imagine would have really reduced his reign at the top and probably cost him his unbeaten record .

Same for Haye , would have had to be a career heavyweight Pre 80s