BoxRec

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Foreman may have been down for ten seconds because the ref took a while to get to 7, except once there, 8, 9, and 10 were a blur. Foreman went down with 11 seconds left in the round, more from exhaustion than being beaten up. He was watching the count and started getting up when the count hit 7, was halfway up at 8, and then the ref stopped the match with about 3 seconds left in the round. Again, Foreman was not that beaten up at all and was more exhausted than anything.

Also, I've been watching Ali's matches against Foreman, Frazier, and his rematch with Spinks. Unintentional clinching is simply a part of boxing. However, against Foreman, Frazier, and in Spinks II, I think Ali may have been intentionally initiating clinches and illegally holding them as a "strategy", which is a foul and not a legal strategy. He was never really penalized for it either. What do you guys think, is intentionally clinching and holding on a constant basis a strategy or a foul?

Ali was notorious for holding the neck & pushing down. In the 70s it became more blatant. Mostly it was due to the fact that he was a terrible in-fighter, but it was also strategic to wear down opponents. Because he was Ali he got away with it. He did it regardless of who he fought. He did it to Chuck Wepner as much as he did it to Frazier.

As for the fast count... That's boxing... its never been about "ten seconds", but a "ten count"... So when people bitch about Dempsey vs Tunney or even Tyson vs Douglas, the argument is meaningless unless it was obviously blatant the referee was going extra slow or extra fast from the beginning.

The rumble in the jungle for me he beat the count and it was a fast count after 7 never seen such a fast count but take nothing away from ali just was what it was but for me forman is a all time great ali great but forman greater

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑26 Sep 2018, 05:22 Ali was notorious for holding the neck & pushing down. In the 70s it became more blatant. Mostly it was due to the fact that he was a terrible in-fighter, but it was also strategic to wear down opponents. Because he was Ali he got away with it. He did it regardless of who he fought. He did it to Chuck Wepner as much as he did it to Frazier.

As for the fast count... That's boxing... its never been about "ten seconds", but a "ten count"... So when people bitch about Dempsey vs Tunney or even Tyson vs Douglas, the argument is meaningless unless it was obviously blatant the referee was going extra slow or extra fast from the beginning.

As for the fast count, that's my point. Event though Foreman MIGHT have been down for 10 seconds, he was watching the count, started getting up at 7, and then 8,9,10 were instantaneous. Can the referee take 9.5 seconds to get to 5 and then rattle off 6,7,8,9,10 like an auctioneer so fast the boxer can't get to his feet in time and then say it wasn't a fast count because the guy was down for 10 seconds?

Dempsey vs. Tunney was legit because it was Dempsey's fault the count was slow, If a boxer knocks his opponent down, he can't simply stand over top of him until the count of 9 and then dive back to his corner, leaving him one second to get up.

Bert Sugar once said this about that count

"If you watch. Foreman is up at 9, but he just walks to his corner, and makes no protest whatsoever about the count. He was a beaten man. He was beaten mentally"

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Sep 2018, 16:40 Bert Sugar once said this about that count

"If you watch. Foreman is up at 9, but he just walks to his corner, and makes no protest whatsoever about the count. He was a beaten man. He was beaten mentally"

I think it’s a fair comment. Ali‘s style beat Foreman‘s that night. It was Ali‘s finest hour for me.

Even if Foreman beat the count he was exhausted. Ali would've beaten him anyway.

You don't know that. Fact is the ref waived it off as fast as he could, objectively too fast and not according to the rules. takes nothing away from the masterful performance ali put up that night, but i always thought in a rematch or then a rubber match, foreman with a just slightly more controlled approach would've decisively beaten /knocked out ali. I know many others are of the opinion that if they fought ten times more, ali would come out on top as often but i don't think so, quite the opposite.

I think the problem is that the announcer (who obviously dubbed this in after the fight) on youtube is off on the count. You can't go by him.

adislav123 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 10:38 You don't know that. Fact is the ref waived it off as fast as he could, objectively too fast and not according to the rules. takes nothing away from the masterful performance ali put up that night, but i always thought in a rematch or then a rubber match, foreman with a just slightly more controlled approach would've decisively beaten /knocked out ali. I know many others are of the opinion that if they fought ten times more, ali would come out on top as often but i don't think so, quite the opposite.

In that fight Foreman fought dumb, if he beat the count I very much doubt he would’ve fought any different in the next round. He was gassed, he done nothing to show he would’ve gone on to win. Foreman himself even says he would have never beaten Ali.

Old foreman said that, it's called showing humility towards a great champ who left his health in the ring. Mean foreman wanted nothing more than a rematch and was sure he would beat him. It's obvious why ali didn't give him one, despite being a fight everybody wanted to see.

adislav123 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 12:11 Old foreman said that, it's called showing humility towards a great champ who left his health in the ring. Mean foreman wanted nothing more than a rematch and was sure he would beat him. It's obvious why ali didn't give him one, despite being a fight everybody wanted to see.

All we know for a fact is Foreman fought dumb and he was stopped. Had he beaten the count how would he have won the fight, by continuing to flail away at Ali’s arms? He was getting more and more tired, it would’ve been a matter of time before he hit the deck again.

Controversial wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 13:03

adislav123 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 12:11 Old foreman said that, it's called showing humility towards a great champ who left his health in the ring. Mean foreman wanted nothing more than a rematch and was sure he would beat him. It's obvious why ali didn't give him one, despite being a fight everybody wanted to see.

All we know for a fact is Foreman fought dumb and he was stopped. Had he beaten the count how would he have won the fight, by continuing to flail away at Ali’s arms? He was getting more and more tired, it would’ve been a matter of time before he hit the deck again.

Indeed

Foreman fought pretty much the same way he always did and which had always worked for him before. Had he fought differently, people would have said he fought a dumb fight because he didn't do what had always been successful for him before.

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he should not have stayed out of the ring over a year after their fight. Had he continued fighting (and winning) he would have been the number 1 contender and Ali would have had to have fought him again.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 15:34 Foreman fought pretty much the same way he always did and which had always worked for him before. Had he fought differently, people would have said he fought a dumb fight because he didn't do what had always been successful for him before.

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he should not have stayed out of the ring over a year after their fight. Had he continued fighting (and winning) he would have been the number 1 contender and Ali would have had to have fought him again.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Sep 2018, 11:06 I think the problem is that the announcer (who obviously dubbed this in after the fight) on youtube is off on the count. You can't go by him.

I was going by the time clock displayed on the screen. It is consistent with what I saw on my old VHS copy.

I can't verify if this is true or not, except I read somewhere that Ali tried to set up a match with either Ernie Shavers, Gerry Cooney, or George Foreman after he lost to Holmes and Berbick. He believed he might do better against a slugging brawler than a slick boxer like Holmes. Supposedly the promoter refused to even contact Foreman because he said Foreman had no interest in coming out of retirement. We could have witnessed a rematch around 1982, except both guys stayed in retirement.

Thank god for that. Shavers, Cooney or Foreman if coming out of retirement versus ali would have been sad affairs. He had no place in a ring already before this would've happened. his sturdiness, just standing there, covering up, sliping and taking damage, refusing to give in but handicapped by the disease, incapable of firing back anything of note combined with his resiliance to punishment the only thing he had left would have been some horrible shit to watch. They wpuldn't have allowed it, but who knows if enough money involved.