BoxRec

The Lewis of 2000 vs Joshua of 2018

I can bet that at least one idiot will come here and say: "Lewis would knock him out exactly like he did with Michael Grant".

No, he wouldn't. Anthony Joshua is MUCH better than Grant is everything except probably stamina. Much better chin, much better power (yes, MUCH better - Grant couldn't even drop 5'7'' Danny Wofford, Jeff Wooden and Ray Anis, who was demolished by John Ruiz in 23 seconds), much better skills, ring IQ, killer instinct and ring generalship.

Saying that, I'd favour peak 1997-2001 (except of Rahman 1st fight) version of Lewis to beat 2018 version of Anthony Joshua. But it definitely wouldn't be a walk in the park for Lennox.

Lewis 100%. Wouldn't quite buy into the "he wouldn't break a sweat" notion, but you'd still catch the second half of match of the day.

I think it would be more Lewis/Briggs than Lewis/Grant, but either way Joshua is going down and getting stopped inside the distance. AJ is a big strong guy but he isn't much of a boxer; he got outboxed for 10 rounds by a rusty 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko, who was working with a measly 3 punches and no combinations. Lewis on the other hand is a thinking, improvisational boxer, with a variety of punches and combinations for whatever position his opponent tries. The more gifted guy, Lewis, wins.

I can't see Lewis letting him take 5-6 rounds off after knocking him down, which he would certainly do.

Lewis would have too much for Joshua, big man with very good feet, jab and right hand which would slowly break Joshua down, without sounding all "back in my day" about it the current heavy scene just doesn't have that kind of quality about anymore.

littlepug wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 10:38 Lewis would have too much for Joshua, big man with very good feet, jab and right hand which would slowly break Joshua down, without sounding all "back in my day" about it the current heavy scene just doesn't have that kind of quality about anymore.

Boy did you nail it. Boxing fundamentals take a back seat in todays heavyweight scene.
Lewis would jab him to death before stopping Joshua late

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 09:46 I think it would be more Lewis/Briggs than Lewis/Grant, but either way Joshua is going down and getting stopped inside the distance. AJ is a big strong guy but he isn't much of a boxer; he got outboxed for 10 rounds by a rusty 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko, who was working with a measly 3 punches and no combinations. Lewis on the other hand is a thinking, improvisational boxer, with a variety of punches and combinations for whatever position his opponent tries. The more gifted guy, Lewis, wins.

But Joshua's fight against Wlad was just his 19th pro fight. Lennox in his 19th fight couldn't stop or even drop 5'11'' journeyman Levi Billups, who was already knocked out 4 times before facing Lewis (including 44 seconds demolition from the light-hitting cruiserweight Orlin Norris).

Lewis is more gifted - I agree about this part. He was way quicker on his feet and had better reflexes. And that is the reason why I would favour prime, polished version of Lewis to beat AJ. But definitely not the pre-Steward version.

Lewis was a superior boxer. Lennox by UD or late KO/TKO.

Lewis is sort of portrayed by many as this unbeatable heavyweight. He was great but he wasn't without flaws. What I'll say though is if he fought with a point to prove and a healthy dose of respect for the other guys power you'd see him at his best and his best is good enough to beat most.

I think it would be a dull fight void of any real action perhaps with Lewis winning a decision or a late rounds KO if Joshua starts to fight like he needs a KO.

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 11:21

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 09:46 I think it would be more Lewis/Briggs than Lewis/Grant, but either way Joshua is going down and getting stopped inside the distance. AJ is a big strong guy but he isn't much of a boxer; he got outboxed for 10 rounds by a rusty 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko, who was working with a measly 3 punches and no combinations. Lewis on the other hand is a thinking, improvisational boxer, with a variety of punches and combinations for whatever position his opponent tries. The more gifted guy, Lewis, wins.

But Joshua's fight against Wlad was just his 19th pro fight. Lennox in his 19th fight couldn't stop or even drop 5'11'' journeyman Levi Billups, who was already knocked out 4 times before facing Lewis (including 44 seconds demolition from the light-hitting cruiserweight Orlin Norris).

Lewis is more gifted - I agree about this part. He was way quicker on his feet and had better reflexes. And that is the reason why I would favour prime, polished version of Lewis to beat AJ. But definitely not the pre-Steward version.

So what's your point? You sound like a record skimmer. Are you saying that Lennox Lewis couldn't punch because he didn't stop or drop Billups in his 19th fight? His career clearly demonstrates that he was a big puncher, therefore we must give credit to Billups, who raised his game, and was no doubt helped by at last being given a full camp. How does this affect anything? Are you saying that Lewis struggled with Billups, despite him winning 10 rounds to nil? I can't fathom what point you're trying to make. I'll bet the Lennox Lewis who went 10 rounds with Levi Billups would take a 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko's head off. Not because Billups is better than Wlad--he obviously isn't--but because Billups is a small, awkward, strong, hard headed type, while Wlad is a big guy, very old and with a glass chin, and would present a totally different challenge. No version of Wladimir outboxes Lewis.

The pre-Steward Lewis took Mason and Ruddock apart--that guy destroys AJ, so does the awful one who was getting outjabbed by Bruno. The Steward model Lewis as you say, beats him too.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 14:18

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 11:21

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 09:46 I think it would be more Lewis/Briggs than Lewis/Grant, but either way Joshua is going down and getting stopped inside the distance. AJ is a big strong guy but he isn't much of a boxer; he got outboxed for 10 rounds by a rusty 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko, who was working with a measly 3 punches and no combinations. Lewis on the other hand is a thinking, improvisational boxer, with a variety of punches and combinations for whatever position his opponent tries. The more gifted guy, Lewis, wins.

But Joshua's fight against Wlad was just his 19th pro fight. Lennox in his 19th fight couldn't stop or even drop 5'11'' journeyman Levi Billups, who was already knocked out 4 times before facing Lewis (including 44 seconds demolition from the light-hitting cruiserweight Orlin Norris).

Lewis is more gifted - I agree about this part. He was way quicker on his feet and had better reflexes. And that is the reason why I would favour prime, polished version of Lewis to beat AJ. But definitely not the pre-Steward version.

So what's your point? You sound like a record skimmer. Are you saying that Lennox Lewis couldn't punch because he didn't stop or drop Billups in his 19th fight? His career clearly demonstrates that he was a big puncher, therefore we must give credit to Billups, who raised his game, and was no doubt helped by at last being given a full camp. How does this affect anything? Are you saying that Lewis struggled with Billups, despite him winning 10 rounds to nil? I can't fathom what point you're trying to make. I'll bet the Lennox Lewis who went 10 rounds with Levi Billups would take a 41 year old Wladimir Klitschko's head off. Not because Billups is better than Wlad--he obviously isn't--but because Billups is a small, awkward, strong, hard headed type, while Wlad is a big guy, very old and with a glass chin, and would present a totally different challenge. No version of Wladimir outboxes Lewis.

The pre-Steward Lewis took Mason and Ruddock apart--that guy destroys AJ, so does the awful one who was getting outjabbed by Bruno. The Steward model Lewis as you say, beats him too.

I have no doubts that 41 y.o. Wlad would KO version of Lewis that went the distance against Billups. Zero doubts. Pre-Steward Lewis was about 30% as good as prime version of Lennox. Even Steward himself said that Lewis balance was terrible when he started working with him. The only time when pre-Steward Lewis looked great was a fight against Ruddock. He stopped Mason on cuts and in NO POINT of the fight Mason was close to being dropped. And Mason was never a top-10 material in that HW division, which was full of talents. He never beat top-20 opponents. Lewis didn't look impressive at all against Ocasio, Billups, shot Tucker, Bruno and Phil Jackson.

If you are so high on pre-Steward Lewis, tell me please, can you imagine 1997-2001 version (aside of Rahman fight):

1) not demolishing Levi Billups in 2-3 rounds (like Norris, Sanders, Witherspoon, Jeremy Williams and even Vitali did)?
2) going the diistance against shot Tony Tucker?
3) being outboxed for 6 rounds against Frank Bruno?
4) going 8 rounds against glass-jawed Phil Jackson?

I'm not saying Lewis didn't have the power. Any version of Lennox was a huge puncher. I'm just saying that his SKILL level was nowhere near to what it has become under Stewars tutelage. Nowhere near!

I guess literally every thread has to include the mighty Klitschkos.

I can imagine all of those things.

The Billups thing is overdone. Lewis was on his way up, he should have stopped him, but it's not like this was some sort of close fight. He won just about every round.
I certainly think Tucker could have last the distance against Klitschko, even at that stage of Tucker's career. No one else had stopped Tucker up that point either.
Not hard to see Bruno beating Klitschko. He nails him once, and glassjaw is done for.
Why is so farfetched that Phil Jackson would make it to the 8th round.
Nobody would remember Purritty, Sanders and Brewster if Klitschko would not have been got stopped by them. He made their careers.

I will take a not so impressive win over an embarrassing loss anytime.

It depends on what Lennox Lewis showed up. He'd either outbox Joshua in a master class fashion, or he'd just flat out spark him out. When Lewis was motivated, nobody was stopping him. Period. For all the talk about Joshua.... I still see him as this guy who was pushed upon the public when he didn't necessarily deserve it, and his best wins have been against the inactive Klitschko & the much smaller (and older) Povetkin, etc.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 15:41 I guess literally every thread has to include the mighty Klitschkos.

I can imagine all of those things.

The Billups thing is overdone. Lewis was on his way up, he should have stopped him, but it's not like this was some sort of close fight. He won just about every round.
I certainly think Tucker could have last the distance against Klitschko, even at that stage of Tucker's career. No one else had stopped Tucker up that point either.
Not hard to see Bruno beating Klitschko. He nails him once, and glassjaw is done for.
Why is so farfetched that Phil Jackson would make it to the 8th round.
Nobody would remember Purritty, Sanders and Brewster if Klitschko would not have been got stopped by them. He made their careers.

I will take a not so impressive win over an embarrassing loss anytime.

I wasn't the one that brought Klitschko here. And where did you find in my post comparison how would Wlad fought Lewis opponents? I'm comparing pre-Steward version Lewis to his best one. And it's obvious, that pre-Steward version was MUCH worse. I actually think that prime 1997-2001 version of Lewis would demolish his far inferior pre-Steward version in 4 rounds at most in the hypothetical match up. The difference in skills and balance between those version of Lewis wasn't just big - it was HUGE.

The idea that the pre-Stewart version of Lewis has an easy time with Joshua seems a bit far fetched. If your having trouble with the likes of Bruno than I would think Joshua would at the very least pose a huge challenge.

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 14:54I have no doubts that 41 y.o. Wlad would KO version of Lewis that went the distance against Billups. Zero doubts. Pre-Steward Lewis was about 30% as good as prime version of Lennox. Even Steward himself said that Lewis balance was terrible when he started working with him. The only time when pre-Steward Lewis looked great was a fight against Ruddock. He stopped Mason on cuts and in NO POINT of the fight Mason was close to being dropped. And Mason was never a top-10 material in that HW division, which was full of talents. He never beat top-20 opponents. Lewis didn't look impressive at all against Ocasio, Billups, shot Tucker, Bruno and Phil Jackson.

If you are so high on pre-Steward Lewis, tell me please, can you imagine 1997-2001 version (aside of Rahman fight):

1) not demolishing Levi Billups in 2-3 rounds (like Norris, Sanders, Witherspoon, Jeremy Williams and even Vitali did)?
2) going the diistance against shot Tony Tucker?
3) being outboxed for 6 rounds against Frank Bruno?
4) going 8 rounds against glass-jawed Phil Jackson?

I'm not saying Lewis didn't have the power. Any version of Lennox was a huge puncher. I'm just saying that his SKILL level was nowhere near to what it has become under Stewars tutelage. Nowhere near!

You're obsessed with this Billups encounter! Why fixate on such a routine fight, when the very same year in Big Fight Mood he blitzed Ruddock? Billups was a late replacement. He was 5 inches shorter than Lewis--awkward, no? He was heavier than Lewis, despite not carrying any apparent fat. Lewis was not happy with John Davenport, and he was so disgusted with his Billups performance that he actually changed trainers afterwards. It was an ugly night he still won 10-nil. Just because it was fight 19 doesn't matter one iota. False comparison. A different opponent brings out a different performance. That is the reality of boxing. Case in point: all of boxing history. Familiarise thy self with it!

He looked great against Mason, who FYI was top 10 ranked by 2 bodies, was number 8 in the Boxing Illustrated independent rankings (Lewis at that point wasn't in the top 25), was in the frame for a Tyson fight, and the fact Lewis couldn't knock him down somehow diminishes his performance? Evidently, Mason had a very hard head, which probably explains how he could spar hundreds of rounds with Bruno without ever going down. Lewis was catapulted to number 10 by beating Mason, was widely praised for his stylish performance, and so although you weren't impressed when you watched it on Youtube decades later, everyone else was at the time.

1) Don't think a Manny Steward Lewis would quickly demolish Billups because post McCall he was wary of short guys, see Butler, Tua, Tyson; I do think he would stop Billups in a slicker, methodical performance.
2) That Tony Tucker would go 12 with any version of Lennox Lewis. Tucker was past his prime, but he had a very hard head & proved he was still world class. I think Tucker would have gone 12 with Bowe too at that point.
3) Mercer gave the Manny version of Lewis fits with the jab, so too could Bruno with that long ramrod one he employed. I think Lewis would make a safer, longer, more boring fight of it with Manny.
4) Phil Jackson; yes I think Lewis would take him out quicker, but again, not that quick, for reasons detailed in point 1.

Lewis was a natural boxer, multifaceted; even in the early years, he could turn on the style if he saw the threat in front of him (Mason, Ruddock) and pull it out when in peril (Tucker, Bruno). He was just too vastly experienced for an aggressive powerhouse with a low ring IQ and not much of a jab, which is what Anthony Joshua is.

Lewis wins this 99 times out of 100 apart from the one time he turns up complacent and gets knocked out

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑05 Oct 2018, 09:38
1) Don't think a Manny Steward Lewis would quickly demolish Billups because post McCall he was wary of short guys, see Butler, Tua, Tyson; I do think he would stop Billups in a slicker, methodical performance.
2) That Tony Tucker would go 12 with any version of Lennox Lewis. Tucker was past his prime, but he had a very hard head & proved he was still world class. I think Tucker would have gone 12 with Bowe too at that point.
3) Mercer gave the Manny version of Lewis fits with the jab, so too could Bruno with that long ramrod one he employed. I think Lewis would make a safer, longer, more boring fight of it with Manny.
4) Phil Jackson; yes I think Lewis would take him out quicker, but again, not that quick, for reasons detailed in point 1.

I respectfully disagree:

1) OK, probably not in 2-3 rounds, but I can't see Billups lasting more than 5 against Steward vesrion of Lewis.

2) I'm pretty sure 1997-2001 Lennox would stop Tucker inside 8 rounds. That version of Tucker didn't look good at all against McCall and Norris - I think 5'11'' Norris beat him in both fights. 1997-2001 version of Lewis had much better balance and ring IQ than pre-Stawerd version. When he hurt or knocked down his opponents, he finished them right then and there. But pre-Steward version not only was unable to finish Tucker after knocking him down early in the ninth round, he got a beating in that round. I'm sure that 1997-2001 version of Lewis would have finished Tucker pretty soon after knocking him down. And he certainly wouldn't get his ass kicked exactly in the same round.

3) Against Mercer it wasn't the best version of Lewis yet. He worked with Steward 1.5 years only whe he fought Ray. Plus Mercer had better jab than Bruno. And hhe wasn't as vulnerable for overhand rights as Bruno was (which made Bruno's jab easier to counter). I agree that 1997-2001 version of Lewis would make it safer, more boring fight, but he would be winning it comfortably before the stoppage.

4) Once again - 1997-2001 version Lewis ALWAYS finished his opponents soon after knocking them down. He knocked Jackson early in the first round but couldn't finish him until 8th. Why? Because he was NOWHERE near as skilled and as smart as he has became under Steward tutelage. His balance, punch selection and ring IQ were much, much worse then.

lol, even when someone is presenting a perfectly polite reasonable case tuan cant help but turn into an angry condescending c!nt

does a great job summing up the tone of this grumpy old mens section

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 16:57

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 15:41 I guess literally every thread has to include the mighty Klitschkos.

I can imagine all of those things.

The Billups thing is overdone. Lewis was on his way up, he should have stopped him, but it's not like this was some sort of close fight. He won just about every round.
I certainly think Tucker could have last the distance against Klitschko, even at that stage of Tucker's career. No one else had stopped Tucker up that point either.
Not hard to see Bruno beating Klitschko. He nails him once, and glassjaw is done for.
Why is so farfetched that Phil Jackson would make it to the 8th round.
Nobody would remember Purritty, Sanders and Brewster if Klitschko would not have been got stopped by them. He made their careers.

I will take a not so impressive win over an embarrassing loss anytime.

I wasn't the one that brought Klitschko here. And where did you find in my post comparison how would Wlad fought Lewis opponents? I'm comparing pre-Steward version Lewis to his best one. And it's obvious, that pre-Steward version was MUCH worse. I actually think that prime 1997-2001 version of Lewis would demolish his far inferior pre-Steward version in 4 rounds at most in the hypothetical match up. The difference in skills and balance between those version of Lewis wasn't just big - it was HUGE.

Some of his best performances were pre-Steward. You can argue it either way.
In the 1997-2001 time frame, he barely beat Mercer, (I and others thought he didn't deserve the decision), didn't look against Mavrovic, or in either of the Holyfield fights and got ko'd by Rahman.
For the most part, he looked better against Ruddock, Tucker, Jackson and Bruno then in those fights. I would argue that the Ruddock fight was the best fight of his career.

Regardless, he was much better than glassjaw.

Anthony Joshua? I didn't think Joshua fought anyone that isn't ready for the retirement home.

Lewis KO 5-8.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Oct 2018, 16:48

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 16:57

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2018, 15:41 I guess literally every thread has to include the mighty Klitschkos.

I can imagine all of those things.

The Billups thing is overdone. Lewis was on his way up, he should have stopped him, but it's not like this was some sort of close fight. He won just about every round.
I certainly think Tucker could have last the distance against Klitschko, even at that stage of Tucker's career. No one else had stopped Tucker up that point either.
Not hard to see Bruno beating Klitschko. He nails him once, and glassjaw is done for.
Why is so farfetched that Phil Jackson would make it to the 8th round.
Nobody would remember Purritty, Sanders and Brewster if Klitschko would not have been got stopped by them. He made their careers.

I will take a not so impressive win over an embarrassing loss anytime.

I wasn't the one that brought Klitschko here. And where did you find in my post comparison how would Wlad fought Lewis opponents? I'm comparing pre-Steward version Lewis to his best one. And it's obvious, that pre-Steward version was MUCH worse. I actually think that prime 1997-2001 version of Lewis would demolish his far inferior pre-Steward version in 4 rounds at most in the hypothetical match up. The difference in skills and balance between those version of Lewis wasn't just big - it was HUGE.

Some of his best performances were pre-Steward. You can argue it either way.
In the 1997-2001 time frame, he barely beat Mercer, (I and others thought he didn't deserve the decision), didn't look against Mavrovic, or in either of the Holyfield fights and got ko'd by Rahman.
For the most part, he looked better against Ruddock, Tucker, Jackson and Bruno then in those fights. I would argue that the Ruddock fight was the best fight of his career.

Regardless, he was much better than glassjaw.

Anthony Joshua? I didn't think Joshua fought anyone that isn't ready for the retirement home.

His performance against Mercer was much better than agaist Bruno. If Mercer had Bruno's chin, I doubt he would last more than 4 rounds against Lennox that night.

Lewis lost about the same amount of rounds against washed up Holyfield in their first fight as he did against washed up Tucker (on my card at least). But Holyfield in undeniably much, much better than Tucker. They are in completely different leagues actually. Even completely shot Holyfield was able to beat prime Rahman, while Tucker in the younger age was demolished by Herbie Hide in two rounds. Shot Tucker was beaten up badly and KO'ed by John Ruiz. Holyfield in the same age went 1-1-1 against better, more experienced version of Ruiz.

Jackson never was a top-20 fighter, Jeremy Williams knocked him out in one round with a jab! Francois Botha was a better fighter than Phil Jackson and he was also much shorter than Lennox just like Jackson was. Yet, Lewis demolished Botha in 2 rounds while glass-jawed Jackson went 8 against pre-Steward Lennox. When Lennox hurt Botha, he took him out right then and there, when he hurt and knocked down Jackson, Phil was able to surviver and last 7 more rounds against unbalanced and unpolished version of Lewis.

As for Ruddock fight, I've already stated that it was a great performance where Lewis showed people what he is capable of. But was it better than Golota's destrucrion? I don't think so. Golota was better, more skilled, way more dimensional boxer than Ruddock. And Lennox himself said multiple times that his best fight, his best performance was against Hasim Rahman in the rematch. I agree with him - the way he set up that 1-2 KO combo was a thing of beauty.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Golota better than Ruddock? I don't know. Golota had a lot of meltdowns. You never knew what you were going to get with him. I think that had as much to do with Golota's head as what Lewis did.

I don't know what the big criticism of the Jackson fight is. He completely dominated that fight. He won every round. He knocked him down a few times. So what if it went until the 8th round.

He looked like mediocre in the first Holyfield fight and looked worse in the rematch. Holyfield was close to being shot by that point and could only go 1-1-1 against Ruiz, who was a stiff. Lewis should have won these fights against Holyfield easily.
Don't know what the big criticism of the Tucker fight is other than he didn't stop him. He didn't look awesome but certainly didn't look bad.
And you still have the Mavrovic fight and the ko loss to Rahman when Stewart was training him..
We can spin this anyway we want to, but I just don't agree that there was this huge improvement with Stewart.

Drifting OT here but I can't help but bring it up. I cannot believe that the guy who made such a big deal out of Lewis/Billups--and saw so much relevance and meaning in how Billups fared against Jeremy Williams and Corrie Sanders (and even Orlin Norris in his god damn pro debut!) compared to Lewis--can also say with a straight face that Andrew Golota is better than Razor Ruddock, given the disparity of outcomes in actually important big fights with Mike Tyson.

Ruddock twice engages in Epics with a 24 yr old Mike Tyson.

Andrew Golota meets the 35 year old 'Leg Iron' Mike and goes out in 2 rounds with a whimper.

But Golota is better than Ruddock, okay? Using YOUR OWN FORMULA for appraising fighters puts Ruddock leagues above Golota! The cognitive dissonance on display in Boxing Writer's (Blogger's) posts is astounding.