BoxRec

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 08:27**

Greetings, fight fans. My name is Jake, and I am new here at BoxRec. I have long admired boxing, mainly the heavyweight division, but have been away from the sport for some time. I recently watched a few fights that rekindled my dormant love for boxing, and I have questions regarding the heavyweight division, and more specifically, the upcoming championship fight(s) between Wilder/Fury/Joshua.

Now, I’m aware that the heavyweight division hasn’t been what it once was for many years, at least not to me. But it seems that there is much excitement brewing around Wilder being the next great American Heavyweight Champion (he may already be?). I don’t want to be a misinformed guy that eats up everything that a specific promotion tells me to eat up, so I have questions for you more experienced fight fans.

Is Wilder truly the badass he’s been made out to be? Is he the next great American Heavyweight champion? What are your feelings around the heavyweight division as a whole, and what does the Wilder/Joshua/Fury dynamic do for the division?

Long story short....is the heavyweight division “back”, if it ever really left?

Thanks a lot and I look forward to the discussion!

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 08:53**

Wilder is a good fighter overall. He lacks technical aspects of the game, but he can use his height and reach. He has incredible power in right hand and he has an ability to time it. But that's not enough for being great. Wilder is a protected champion, who hadn't fought all the best available. Now Gypsy King will come and take the belt. Wilder's team thought, Fury wasn't truly back. They made a mistake. If Wilder will manage to defeat Fury, I will give him much more credit. But I don't think, that it'll happen. I suppose, Wilder is taking his biggest challenge, which is too much for him. I suppose, he won't be able to become a great fighter.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:04**

JKM1985 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 08:27 Greetings, fight fans. My name is Jake, and I am new here at BoxRec. I have long admired boxing, mainly the heavyweight division, but have been away from the sport for some time. I recently watched a few fights that rekindled my dormant love for boxing, and I have questions regarding the heavyweight division, and more specifically, the upcoming championship fight(s) between Wilder/Fury/Joshua.

Now, I’m aware that the heavyweight division hasn’t been what it once was for many years, at least not to me. But it seems that there is much excitement brewing around Wilder being the next great American Heavyweight Champion (he may already be?). I don’t want to be a misinformed guy that eats up everything that a specific promotion tells me to eat up, so I have questions for you more experienced fight fans.

Is Wilder truly the badass he’s been made out to be? Is he the next great American Heavyweight champion? What are your feelings around the heavyweight division as a whole, and what does the Wilder/Joshua/Fury dynamic do for the division?

Long story short....is the heavyweight division “back”, if it ever really left?

Thanks a lot and I look forward to the discussion!

Long story (not so) short:

1. Wilder needs to defeat Fury and AJ to be “the badass he’s been made out to be.”

2. See #1.

3 & 4. The AJ / Fury / Wilder / Ortiz / Povetkin / Whyte / Usyk / Parker, etc., HW division is back. To his credit, the great WKlit ushered it in by doing his part in one of the greatest HW fights in history vs AJ a year and a half ago.

Now we get a rehabbed repeatedly Fury vs Wilder, which is a superfight for real boxing fans. But in order to get here, Wilder had to overcome a very game Ortiz. The AJ vs Povetkin fight was terrific too.

The HW div is most certainly back.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:05**

Joshua is the guy with the best resume for the current moment. He has good anthropometric qualities, he is athletic, he is technically solid. He has power. He can be sharp, he can be cautious. But he lacks fluidity and creativity. He beat Klitschko not in that convincing way Fury had done. Yes, there were a KO in contrast to Fury's fight, but there was no that confidence and that dominance. Joshua is demonstrating some flaws from fight to fight, but he's still looking like a learning boxer. Ha had been given too much dividends in advance, but he is gradually proving he deserved it. However, soon Gypsy King will take Wilder's belt and come forJoshua. Then all Joshua's flaws will come out on the surface.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:10**

DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:05 Joshua is the guy with the best resume for the current moment. He has good anthropometric qualities, he is athletic, he is technically solid. He has power. He can be sharp, he can be cautious. But he lacks fluidity and creativity. He beat Klitschko not in that convincing way Fury had done. Yes, there were a KO in contrast to Fury's fight, but there was no that confidence and that dominance. Joshua is demonstrating some flaws from fight to fight, but he's still looking like a learning boxer. Ha had been given too much dividends in advance, but he is gradually proving he deserved it. However, soon Gypsy King will take Wilder's belt and come forJoshua. Then all Joshua's flaws will come out on the surface.

Fury did not defeat the same WKlit as AJ did, and you know it. I give him credit for the W but WKlit was not himself that night. The Gypsy tub of coked up lard won a staring contest that night.

A W is a W though.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:14**

ironbeard wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:10
DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:05 Joshua is the guy with the best resume for the current moment. He has good anthropometric qualities, he is athletic, he is technically solid. He has power. He can be sharp, he can be cautious. But he lacks fluidity and creativity. He beat Klitschko not in that convincing way Fury had done. Yes, there were a KO in contrast to Fury's fight, but there was no that confidence and that dominance. Joshua is demonstrating some flaws from fight to fight, but he's still looking like a learning boxer. Ha had been given too much dividends in advance, but he is gradually proving he deserved it. However, soon Gypsy King will take Wilder's belt and come forJoshua. Then all Joshua's flaws will come out on the surface.
Fury did not defeat the same WKlit as AJ did, and you know it. I give him credit for the W but WKlit was not himself that night. The Gypsy tub of coked up lard won a staring contest that night.

A W is a W though.

The thing is, Fury has defeated the reigning dominant champion, while Joshua defeated a conquered champ after the time-off. In the sense of motivation Wlad seemed to be better in AJ fight though, but it's logical here, cause he had no belts anymore.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:19**

DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:14
ironbeard wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:10
DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:05 Joshua is the guy with the best resume for the current moment. He has good anthropometric qualities, he is athletic, he is technically solid. He has power. He can be sharp, he can be cautious. But he lacks fluidity and creativity. He beat Klitschko not in that convincing way Fury had done. Yes, there were a KO in contrast to Fury's fight, but there was no that confidence and that dominance. Joshua is demonstrating some flaws from fight to fight, but he's still looking like a learning boxer. Ha had been given too much dividends in advance, but he is gradually proving he deserved it. However, soon Gypsy King will take Wilder's belt and come forJoshua. Then all Joshua's flaws will come out on the surface.
Fury did not defeat the same WKlit as AJ did, and you know it. I give him credit for the W but WKlit was not himself that night. The Gypsy tub of coked up lard won a staring contest that night.

A W is a W though.
The thing is, Fury has defeated the reigning dominant champion, while Joshua defeated a conquered champ after the time-off. In the sense of motivation Wlad seemed to be better in AJ fight though, but it's logical here, cause he had no belts anymore.

Fury has “no belts anymore.” As I said in the other thread, as boring a performance as it was, against a completely triggerless champion, I gave Fury huge credit for the W over WKlit. I will give him credit again if he defeats Wilder, or even if he loses valiantly.

But Fury in no way defeated the WKlit that AJ did. There is no comparison between those performances. Zero.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:19**

There are only three A+ HWs (Joshua, Wilder, Fury).
Usyk (and maybe Gassiev) will likely move up from CW, so there will be four (maybe five) A+ HWs soon.
There are several A HWs, two veterans (Ortiz, Povetkin) and some fighters in theirs respective primes : Parker, Whyte and Miller.
Should I mention Breazeale and H. Fury ? Maybe, but I am not 100 % sure about them.
There is a youngster with a great amateur experience (Hrgović) and one without it (Dubois). They might be on the top in two or three years. I don't believe in Joyce or Yoka, I think the both are limited fighters, but I would like to be wrong about them.

That's it..............

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 09:26**

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:19 There are only three A+ HWs (Joshua, Wilder, Fury).
Usyk (and maybe Gassiev) will likely move up from CW, so there will be four (maybe five) A+ HWs soon.
There are several A HWs, two veterans (Ortiz, Povetkin) and some fighters in theirs respective primes : Parker, Whyte and Miller.
Should I mention Breazeale and H. Fury ? Maybe, but I am not 100 % sure about them.
There is a youngster with a great amateur experience (Hrgović) and one without it (Dubois). They might be on the top in two or three years. I don't believe in Joyce or Yoka, I think the both are limited fighters, but I would like to be wrong about them.

That's it..............

That is as much as there has ever been in the HW div.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 11:00**

HW is the weakest it’s been for a very long time. It’s incredibly weak overall.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 11:03**

punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:00 HW is the weakest it’s been for a very long time. It’s incredibly weak overall.

The competition now seems to be the highest in the 2000s.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 11:03**

punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:00 HW is the weakest it’s been for a very long time. It’s incredibly weak overall.

100% disagree.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 13:54**

DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:03
punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:00 HW is the weakest it’s been for a very long time. It’s incredibly weak overall.
The competition now seems to be the highest in the 2000s.

Competitiveness does not equal strength. Plenty of fun and exciting fights right now, but they’re happening between heavily flawed and relatively unskilled participants who would be an afterthought in almost every other HW era. This era isn’t close to sniffing the best of the 2000’s. Not even close.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 14:12**

punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 13:54
DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:03
punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:00 HW is the weakest it’s been for a very long time. It’s incredibly weak overall.
The competition now seems to be the highest in the 2000s.
Competitiveness does not equal strength. Plenty of fun and exciting fights right now, but they’re happening between heavily flawed and relatively unskilled participants who would be an afterthought in almost every other HW era. This era isn’t close to sniffing the best of the 2000’s. Not even close.

Really? Who was better in the 2000s, than the today's top of Fury/Joshua/Wilder? Lewis. Klitschkos. But except them? The 2000s were full of inconsisted champions. I guess, Povetkin and maybe Ortiz, who had never won real championship, would have handled prime Ruiz, Valuev, Briggs, Liakhovich, Ibragimov, etc. Maybe even today's top contenders, like Whyte or Breazeale, would have handled them. So today's era is pretty good.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 15:06**

DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 14:12
punchoutsb wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 13:54
DrDuke wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 11:03

The competition now seems to be the highest in the 2000s.
Competitiveness does not equal strength. Plenty of fun and exciting fights right now, but they’re happening between heavily flawed and relatively unskilled participants who would be an afterthought in almost every other HW era. This era isn’t close to sniffing the best of the 2000’s. Not even close.
Really? Who was better in the 2000s, than the today's top of Fury/Joshua/Wilder? Lewis. Klitschkos. But except them? The 2000s were full of inconsisted champions. I guess, Povetkin and maybe Ortiz, who had never won real championship, would have handled prime Ruiz, Valuev, Briggs, Liakhovich, Ibragimov, etc. Maybe even today's top contenders, like Whyte or Breazeale, would have handled them. So today's era is pretty good.

You already answered your own question. The Lewis and Klitschko trilogy is far superior to the current top three.

Then you proceed to use two 40 year old hangovers (not as much in Ortiz case since he turned pro later) from a previous era to attempt to strengthen this one. Before reinventing himself against this current era, Povetkin was the guy who got shutout by Klitschko and got manhandled by Marco Huck.

The top three today would be in the top ten throughout the 2000's, but none of them would rule the roost. The divisions horrific weakness and shallowness becomes painfully evident the minute you step outside the top three. Sultan, Holy, Rahman, Chagaev, Ruiz, Valuev, Oleg, Johnson, Tua, Thompson, Byrd, Brewster, Sanders, Briggs, Haye, Gomez, to name a few are all better than the majority of the current top ten and it's really not close. The division is currently a bunch of big fat guys who hit hard. The skill isn't there. The current top ten is rounded out with Whyte, Parker, Breazeale, Kownacki, and Miller...that's awful.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 15:36**

JKM1985 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 08:27 Greetings, fight fans. My name is Jake, and I am new here at BoxRec. I have long admired boxing, mainly the heavyweight division, but have been away from the sport for some time. I recently watched a few fights that rekindled my dormant love for boxing, and I have questions regarding the heavyweight division, and more specifically, the upcoming championship fight(s) between Wilder/Fury/Joshua.

Now, I’m aware that the heavyweight division hasn’t been what it once was for many years, at least not to me. But it seems that there is much excitement brewing around Wilder being the next great American Heavyweight Champion (he may already be?). I don’t want to be a misinformed guy that eats up everything that a specific promotion tells me to eat up, so I have questions for you more experienced fight fans.

Is Wilder truly the badass he’s been made out to be? Is he the next great American Heavyweight champion? What are your feelings around the heavyweight division as a whole, and what does the Wilder/Joshua/Fury dynamic do for the division?

Long story short....is the heavyweight division “back”, if it ever really left?

Thanks a lot and I look forward to the discussion!

Welcome to the forums

As you can already see from the answers on this thread we don't agree much here

My take on Wilder is this... He started boxing kind of late. He has great physical talents for boxing but hes technique is not that great.

He was dropping many rounds to Szpilka and Washington. Neither of the guys are master boxers so loosing rounds to them is not a good sign.

Wilder is still head and shoulders above anyone else from the states... Literally

Joshua is the real deal now. Fury was great at hes best. I don't think hes all that anymore. Wilder is fighting him at great time.

Usyk will be another one to follow. He might be the best boxer p4p right now and will surely make an impact in HW too

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 16:02**

I agree that this era is not good.
Lewis and Klitschkos were better than Joshua, Wilder and Fury. But with Joshua, Wilder, Fury ( if he can reach his former shape), Usyk, Hrgovic and other fighters that recently turned pro after 2016 olympics, Povetkin and Ortiz (they are old but still dangerous), Miller we can pretty soon see a HW top 10 where everyone can beat everyone, also, it would be a top 10 with big diversity of styles.

My 3 favourites to become the king of HW division in next years are Joshua, Usyk and Hrgovic.

Imagine a WBSS tournament in HW:

Joshua vs Hrgovic
Wilder vs Miller
Usyk vs Povetkin
Fury vs Ortiz

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 16:26**

JKM1985 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 08:27 Greetings, fight fans. My name is Jake, and I am new here at BoxRec. I have long admired boxing, mainly the heavyweight division, but have been away from the sport for some time. I recently watched a few fights that rekindled my dormant love for boxing, and I have questions regarding the heavyweight division, and more specifically, the upcoming championship fight(s) between Wilder/Fury/Joshua.

Now, I’m aware that the heavyweight division hasn’t been what it once was for many years, at least not to me. But it seems that there is much excitement brewing around Wilder being the next great American Heavyweight Champion (he may already be?). I don’t want to be a misinformed guy that eats up everything that a specific promotion tells me to eat up, so I have questions for you more experienced fight fans.

Is Wilder truly the badass he’s been made out to be? Is he the next great American Heavyweight champion? What are your feelings around the heavyweight division as a whole, and what does the Wilder/Joshua/Fury dynamic do for the division?

Long story short....is the heavyweight division “back”, if it ever really left?

Thanks a lot and I look forward to the discussion!

BTW i recommend you to follow the CW division as much as HW. There the best fight the best! Have you seen the World Boxing Super Series at CW? I recommend you to see Usyk vs Briedis and Gassiev vs Dorticos - fantastic fights, especially Gass vs Dort. Also you should see the KOs: Dorticos over Kudryashov and Gassiev over Wlodarczyk. In final, Usyk won almost every round against fantastic Murat Gassiev in Russia - the Ukranian is phenomenal, all of his world title fights he won outside of his native Ukraine.

Yesterday started the second edition. Tabiti won vs Fayfer after a boring fight, but you shouldn't miss the rest of the tournament. Dorticos will fight Masternak next week, Glowacki fights Vlasov next month. Both these fights seem to be competetive, entertaining and at a very high level. Briedis vs Gevor is worth of watch too though this one seems to be more one-sided as Briedis is a clear favourite.

Usyk won last edition so he holds all the titles now. He will fight Bellew and then move to HW. he has a #1 HW and #1 P4P potential.

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 16:40**

Great replies all around. Thanks a lot, guys!

My follow up question.....so, you’re telling me NOT to order the Wilder/Fury fight? Sounds like it could be a snoozefest?

Posted: **14 Oct 2018, 18:49**

It is hard to predict how Wilder vs Fury will look like. Fury beaten Klitschko then he was inactive for long time, during his inactivity he gained like 50kg/110lbs, drank lots of whisky, huge amounts of cocaine, he had mental isues, in his comeback he foughy very very poor opponents and he wasnt looking impressive. The most likely outcome seems to be a boring fight until Wilder brutally knocks out Fury.

Saying that, i think that unpredictable fights are always worth of watch, not often we see this kind of fights. In shape and prime Fury is Wilder's best opponent so far.

Posted: **15 Oct 2018, 01:54**

dagilechia wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 16:02 I agree that this era is not good.
Lewis and Klitschkos were better than Joshua, Wilder and Fury. But with Joshua, Wilder, Fury ( if he can reach his former shape), Usyk, Hrgovic and other fighters that recently turned pro after 2016 olympics, Povetkin and Ortiz (they are old but still dangerous), Miller we can pretty soon see a HW top 10 where everyone can beat everyone, also, it would be a top 10 with big diversity of styles.

My 3 favourites to become the king of HW division in next years are Joshua, Usyk and Hrgovic.

Imagine a WBSS tournament in HW:

Joshua vs Hrgovic
Wilder vs Miller
Usyk vs Povetkin
Fury vs Ortiz

Great Idea! Why not make a WBSS in HW division right now. They can even make 2 brackets for HW since the other names can crack too.

The one you have was the Division 1 while the Division 2 comprise of Dubois, Yonka, Joyce, Breazeale, Agjaba, Kownacki, The number 1 and 2 spots are Whyte and H. Fury

in the division 2. Lol

Posted: **15 Oct 2018, 02:57**

ezhmael wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 01:54
dagilechia wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 16:02 I agree that this era is not good.
Lewis and Klitschkos were better than Joshua, Wilder and Fury. But with Joshua, Wilder, Fury ( if he can reach his former shape), Usyk, Hrgovic and other fighters that recently turned pro after 2016 olympics, Povetkin and Ortiz (they are old but still dangerous), Miller we can pretty soon see a HW top 10 where everyone can beat everyone, also, it would be a top 10 with big diversity of styles.

My 3 favourites to become the king of HW division in next years are Joshua, Usyk and Hrgovic.

Imagine a WBSS tournament in HW:

Joshua vs Hrgovic
Wilder vs Miller
Usyk vs Povetkin
Fury vs Ortiz

Great Idea! Why not make a WBSS in HW division right now. They can even make 2 brackets for HW since the other names can crack too.

The one you have was the Division 1 while the Division 2 comprise of Dubois, Yonka, Joyce, Breazeale, Agjaba, Kownacki, The number 1 and 2 spots are Whyte and H. Fury in the division 2. Lol

Unfortunately, WBSS in HW will never happen because Heavies generate big money without it and not all of them seem to be willing to fight thw best opponents.

The idea of divisions 1 and 2 seems fantastic!

Posted: **15 Oct 2018, 05:15**

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 02:57
ezhmael wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 01:54
dagilechia wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 16:02 I agree that this era is not good.
Lewis and Klitschkos were better than Joshua, Wilder and Fury. But with Joshua, Wilder, Fury ( if he can reach his former shape), Usyk, Hrgovic and other fighters that recently turned pro after 2016 olympics, Povetkin and Ortiz (they are old but still dangerous), Miller we can pretty soon see a HW top 10 where everyone can beat everyone, also, it would be a top 10 with big diversity of styles.

My 3 favourites to become the king of HW division in next years are Joshua, Usyk and Hrgovic.

Imagine a WBSS tournament in HW:

Joshua vs Hrgovic
Wilder vs Miller
Usyk vs Povetkin
Fury vs Ortiz

Great Idea! Why not make a WBSS in HW division right now. They can even make 2 brackets for HW since the other names can crack too.

The one you have was the Division 1 while the Division 2 comprise of Dubois, Yonka, Joyce, Breazeale, Agjaba, Kownacki, The number 1 and 2 spots are Whyte and H. Fury in the division 2. Lol
Unfortunately, WBSS in HW will never happen because Heavies generate big money without it and not all of them seem to be willing to fight thw best opponents.

The idea of divisions 1 and 2 seems fantastic!

Yeah, sad but true. Those with big names in HW don't need WBSS unless they want to be recognized as the best in the division.

However, it can have a slight chance in smaller named fighters and those who were up and coming fighters as well. A lower version of WBSS comprise of up and coming fighters and gate keepers would be good. Also guys from outside the top 10 can join too.

Posted: **15 Oct 2018, 05:54**

ezhmael wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 05:15
dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 02:57
ezhmael wrote: ↑15 Oct 2018, 01:54

Great Idea! Why not make a WBSS in HW division right now. They can even make 2 brackets for HW since the other names can crack too.

The one you have was the Division 1 while the Division 2 comprise of Dubois, Yonka, Joyce, Breazeale, Agjaba, Kownacki, The number 1 and 2 spots are Whyte and H. Fury in the division 2. Lol
Unfortunately, WBSS in HW will never happen because Heavies generate big money without it and not all of them seem to be willing to fight thw best opponents.

The idea of divisions 1 and 2 seems fantastic!
Yeah, sad but true. Those with big names in HW don't need WBSS unless they want to be recognized as the best in the division.

However, it can have a slight chance in smaller named fighters and those who were up and coming fighters as well. A lower version of WBSS comprise of up and coming fighters and gate keepers would be good. Also guys from outside the top 10 can join too.

Yeah i still like this idea. HW WBSS without the biggest names and without those who recently turned pro but i can see Usyk start in this as it seems unlikely that he will attack HW crown immediately - he needs like 3 fights i think so WBSS would be by far best option. The "small" WBSS tournament could take place at the same time when winner of Wilder/Fury fights AJ and then winner of Joshua/Fury or Wilder vs WBSS winner (most likely Usyk).

Usyk vs Parker (in NZ or UK)
Whyte vs Breazeale (in UK)
Ortiz vs Kownacki (in USA)
Winner of Pulev/Hughie vs Povetkin (in Russia, UK or Bulgaria)

I doubt that Miller would like to participate in this - seems like he doesnt want any risk before title shot

If someone else refuses to participate in this there are still some fighters who would like to take this opportunity like:
-Dereck Chisora
-Bryant Jennings
-winner of Wach vs Szpilka
-Agit Kabayel

Imagine Joshua vs Usyk at Wembley for WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO belts + The Ring belt and Muhammad Ali trophy...

Posted: **15 Oct 2018, 08:55**

ironbeard wrote: ↑14 Oct 2018, 09:10
Fury did not defeat the same WKlit as AJ did, and you know it.

Yep you got that right...

Fury had to fight Wlad that full of confidence from hes ten years undefeated streak. AJ fought the version that was 41 and had been inactive for 18 months

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