BoxRec

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 06:47 Wilder A+ boxer, really? btw, don't you rate the HW division too high? i think that MW, LHW, CW (With Usyk) or WW (With Crawford) are better.

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 06:47 I'll argue on Wilder. A+ is probably too much for a guy depending only on height, range and punching power, while lacking a lot from the technical side.

Kovalev can also be mentioned among other A+, who are past it.

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 06:34 This is my list :

Joshua
Wilder
Fury
Usyk
Canelo Alvarez
Golovkin
Spence
Crawford
M. Garcia
Lomachenko
Davis

Some fighters might be on this list very soon (Gassiev, Briedis, Prograis).
Pacquiao has been A+ level, definitely, but right now he is B+, Rigo, too............

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:20

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 06:47 Wilder A+ boxer, really? btw, don't you rate the HW division too high? i think that MW, LHW, CW (With Usyk) or WW (With Crawford) are better.

I prefer the HW, but you can see that I mentioned some CW, MW and WW fighters. All LHW belt-holders are very close to be considered A+, but I think we should wait to see what will happen next year.
Wilder is A+ boxer, I have no dilemma.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:37

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:20

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 06:47 Wilder A+ boxer, really? btw, don't you rate the HW division too high? i think that MW, LHW, CW (With Usyk) or WW (With Crawford) are better.

I prefer the HW, but you can see that I mentioned some CW, MW and WW fighters. All LHW belt-holders are very close to be considered A+, but I think we should wait to see what will happen next year.
Wilder is A+ boxer, I have no dilemma.

i just think that A+ boxer doesn't loses rounds to Szpilka and Washington

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:43

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:37

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:20

I prefer the HW, but you can see that I mentioned some CW, MW and WW fighters. All LHW belt-holders are very close to be considered A+, but I think we should wait to see what will happen next year.
Wilder is A+ boxer, I have no dilemma.

i just think that A+ boxer doesn't loses rounds to Szpilka and Washington

ALi (Lewis, Foreman, etc, etc) had been losing some rounds, and some fights.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:43

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:37

i just think that A+ boxer doesn't loses rounds to Szpilka and Washington

ALi (Lewis, Foreman, etc, etc) had been losing some rounds, and some fights.

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:02

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:43

ALi (Lewis, Foreman, etc, etc) had been losing some rounds, and some fights.

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

This is a misunderstanding, I don't claim that Wilder is on Ali/Lewis level. This is a topic about active fighters.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:05

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:02

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

This is a misunderstanding, I don't claim that Wilder is on Ali/Lewis level. This is a topic about active fighters.

to me 3 A+ fighters in one division seems too much (just like for the same reason you haven't listed any of the LHWs)

so i guess that you consider Ali and Lewis as all-time A+ fighter, then how would you rate Wilder compared to them?

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:17

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:05

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 08:02

This is a misunderstanding, I don't claim that Wilder is on Ali/Lewis level. This is a topic about active fighters.

to me 3 A+ fighters in one division seems too much (just like for the same reason you haven't listed any of the LHWs)

so i guess that you consider Ali and Lewis as all-time A+ fighter, then how would you rate Wilder compared to them?

Ali and Lewis are all-time A+ fighters, absolutely. If Wilder defeats Fury, Joshua and Usyk he should be considered A+ all-time fighter. Right now, he is an A+ active fighter.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:43

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:37

i just think that A+ boxer doesn't loses rounds to Szpilka and Washington

ALi (Lewis, Foreman, etc, etc) had been losing some rounds, and some fights.

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:41

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:43

ALi (Lewis, Foreman, etc, etc) had been losing some rounds, and some fights.

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

Jimmy Young (hardly an A list fighter) won a lot of rounds v. Ali as well as Foreman.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:57

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:41

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 07:54

but not to someone like Szpilka or Washington. i don't think that Wilder is A+ like Ali or Lewis, i am surprised that there are people who think so.

Jimmy Young (hardly an A list fighter) won a lot of rounds v. Ali as well as Foreman.

true but still he was much better than Szpilka or Washington

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:58

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:57

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:41
Jimmy Young (hardly an A list fighter) won a lot of rounds v. Ali as well as Foreman.

true but still he was much better than Szpilka or Washington

Not sure I agree with that.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:00

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:58

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:57

true but still he was much better than Szpilka or Washington

Not sure I agree with that.

i just can't imagine Szpilka or Washington defeating Foreman or winning even a round vs Ali

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:03

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:00

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:58
Not sure I agree with that.

i just can't imagine Szpilka or Washington defeating Foreman or winning even a round vs Ali

Agreed, but at the time (and even now) I couldn't picture Young giving Foreman and Ali such a headache. He beat Foreman and many thought he beat Ali. He gave Norton a what for as well. His record wasn't stellar: 35-18-3.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:08

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:03

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:00

i just can't imagine Szpilka or Washington defeating Foreman or winning even a round vs Ali

Agreed, but at the time (and even now) I couldn't picture Young giving Foreman and Ali such a headache. He beat Foreman and many thought he beat Ali. He gave Norton a what for as well. His record wasn't stellar: 35-18-3.

his record wasn't stellar that's true but he was losing mainly to very good/good opponents (except of early stage of his career and when he was past prime). his fights vs Foreman, Ali and Norton just prove imo that he was not that bad and it's the record that causes wrong impression. anyway i think that giving Wilder A+ rating is way too generous. so far he done nothing to prove that he's more than a B class champion.

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:10

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:08

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:03
Agreed, but at the time (and even now) I couldn't picture Young giving Foreman and Ali such a headache. He beat Foreman and many thought he beat Ali. He gave Norton a what for as well. His record wasn't stellar: 35-18-3.

his record wasn't stellar that's true but he was losing mainly to very good/good opponents (except of early stage of his career and when he was past prime). his fights vs Foreman, Ali and Norton just prove imo that he was not that bad and it's the record that causes wrong impression. anyway i think that giving Wilder A+ rating is way too generous. so far he done nothing to prove that he's more than a B class champion.

Remember that Young he lost two straight to Ossie Ocasio by clear UD after toughing out a SD loss to Kenny Norton. He was weird. Seemed to rise to the occasion when it suited him and just be ordinary when it didn't.

Wilder is A level and A+ when compared to his HW rivals. An equalizer such as his right hand puts him there for now.

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:23

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:10

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:08

his record wasn't stellar that's true but he was losing mainly to very good/good opponents (except of early stage of his career and when he was past prime). his fights vs Foreman, Ali and Norton just prove imo that he was not that bad and it's the record that causes wrong impression. anyway i think that giving Wilder A+ rating is way too generous. so far he done nothing to prove that he's more than a B class champion.

Remember that Young he lost two straight to Ossie Ocasio by clear UD after toughing out a SD loss to Kenny Norton. He was weird. Seemed to rise to the occasion when it suited him and just be ordinary when it didn't.

Wilder is A level and A+ when compared to his HW rivals. An equalizer such as his right hand puts him there for now.

i don't deny that he has a big power in his right hand but i doubt that he will knock out either Fury or Joshua (i also favour Usyk over him, i just think that Wilder wouldn't land clean on him, but it's just a guess, first Usyk must finally move to the HW) we will see. defeating old (but still good) Ortiz in a close bout and losing (sorry, i just can't see it even as a draw, imo at least 114-112 Fury) to Fury is still not enough to call him a A+ fighter. i will give A+ only to Usyk (at CW), Crawford and Lomachenko, maybe also Golovkin (but he's slighty past his prime) and Inoue (i'd rather give him A for now, but he clearly has A+ potential)

i just think that A+ should be awarded only to really wery special (almost unbeatable) fighters with big accomplishments, Wilder is very beatable and before Ortiz he was defending his title vs weak opponents. i also think that there shouldn't be more than one fighter that is ranked A+ in one division (except of very special cases like prime Mayweather and Pacquiao)

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:25

dagilechia wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:23

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 12:10
Remember that Young he lost two straight to Ossie Ocasio by clear UD after toughing out a SD loss to Kenny Norton. He was weird. Seemed to rise to the occasion when it suited him and just be ordinary when it didn't.

Wilder is A level and A+ when compared to his HW rivals. An equalizer such as his right hand puts him there for now.

i don't deny that he has a big power in his right hand but i doubt that he will knock out either Fury or Joshua (i also favour Usyk over him, i just think that Wilder wouldn't land clean on him, but it's just a guess, first Usyk must finally move to the HW) we will see. defeating old (but still good) Ortiz in a close bout and losing (sorry, i just can't see it even as a draw, imo at least 114-112 Fury) to Fury is still not enough to call him a A+ fighter. i will give A+ only to Usyk (at CW), Crawford and Lomachenko, maybe also Golovkin (but he's slighty past his prime) and Inoue (i'd rather give him A for now, but he clearly has A+ potential)

i just think that A+ should be awarded only to really wery special (almost unbeatable) fighters with big accomplishments, Wilder is very beatable and before Ortiz he was defending his title vs weak opponents. i also think that there shouldn't be more than one fighter that is ranked A+ in one division (except of very special cases like prime Mayweather and Pacquiao)

Ok, fair enough, but if "almost unbeatable" is the criteria, you can remove all HW's from the equation as they are all flawed, IMHO.