BoxRec

Were there any fighters from the late Georgian/ Regency Period (1811-1837)
who were still around and alive when John l. Sullivan became the HW Champion of the World in 1882 ?
Did John L. ever met any of them personally when he went over to England and Europe earlier
in his boxing career ?'

I'm sure Sullivan met some on his tours of Ireland and England--- many died so terribly young from consumption. A few lived to old age.

I know he met many of the old-timers in America, like Tom Allen. I have little doubt that he didn't meet John Morrissey. I know he met Jem Mace on a few occasions.

That book I linked the forum to yesterday gave detailed information on all the old bareknuckle champions and listed how and when they died.

The ones from England that lived until the 1880s are as follows from what I can tell:

Jem Ward, Sam Hurst, William Thompson (Bendigo), William Perry, Tom King, and Joe Wormald. Of course Mace lived until 1910 and Joe Goss until 1885--- Sully met him several times, even did exhibitions with him. Joe Coburn lived until 1890. It's possible Sully met John C. Heenan, who died in 1873, as he did many exhibitions in New York.

Of course those men were from the Regency Period... Jack Broughton himself died in 1789... His conqueror Jack Slack died in 1768... William Stevens died in 1794... George Meggs, nobody knows when he died though he unretired in 1790 to fight Joe Ward... Nobody knows when George Millsom died either... Or Tom Juncua for that matter... William Darts died 1781... Nobody knows when Tom Lyons died... Peter Corcoran died 1784... Nobody knows when Harry Sellers died let alone Duggan Fearns... Thomas Jackling (Johnson) died in 1797... Benjamin Brain died 1794... Daniel Mendoza, the real first scientific boxer, died in 1836 (made his debut 1780)... John Jackson died 1845, and he made his debut in 1788... Thomas Owen died 1843, made his debut in around 1795... Jack Bartholomew died 1803, making his debut in 1795... Jem Belcher died in 1811, making his debut in 1793... Henry Pearce died 1809, making his debut in 1803... John Gully died 1863, making his debut in 1803... Tom Cribb died 1848, making his debut in 1803... Tom Spring died 1851, making his debut in 1814... Tom Cannon died 1858, made his debut in 1809.

Jem Ward was alive in 1882, he died before Sullivan's visit to England.

P.S. Whether John L. Sullivan was the champion of the World or only the champion of America, is debatable.

Senya13 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 17:04 Jem Ward was alive in 1882, he died before Sullivan's visit to England.

P.S. Whether John L. Sullivan was the champion of the World or only the champion of America, is debatable.

He was the world's champion.

It goes back to Mace/Sayers where the two men were crowned jointly as the world's champion--- something never done before or since. When Mace retired as champion, Sayers was still fighting and because he had a draw with John C. Heenan--- and because Sayers retired afterwards--- the title was now Heenan's and to prove he was Champion, he defeated Tom King the British Champion solidifying his claim.

It's from THAT lineage Sullivan was the world champion because after Heenan failed to meet with Mike McCoole, the title went to him, which went to Tom Allen, and Allen lost it to Joe Goss, who in turn lost it to Paddy Ryan who in turn lost it to Sullivan.

Contemporary sporting writers were in disagreement about the answer to that question. It was that way for many decades.

Senya13 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 17:39 Contemporary sporting writers were in disagreement about the answer to that question. It was that way for many decades.

Primarily because of three reasons:

1. Jem Mace unretired in the 1870s and beat Tom Allen, and had two draws with Joe Goss--- which made some consider Mace the "rightful champion", though the Sayers line was just as rightful. Mace then retires again--- and you have Allen & Goss fighting for the vacant crown, which Goss wins and then loses it to Paddy Ryan.

2. Ever since James Burke in the 1830s it was customary for the champion of England (or America) to travel abroad and defend/unify against the foreign champion. One can argue it goes back to Mulineaux challenging Cribb in the 1820s, but Mulineaux claim of being the American Champion is here or there.

3. There was American, English and World titles. Because of this, there was confusion as to who really was "the man". Hence why, as late as Tommy Burns, it seemed logical to defeat the champion in different countries to truly prove your claim as World Champion. Burns, by beating Moir & Lang & Squires & Roche, etc could say he was the best man of multiple continents.


Conclusion?

Sullivan did go abroad across America (twice) and across Europe and Australia to cement his claim--- he did beat the top Englishmen (Greenfield, Mitchell) and he beat the man that beat the man all the way back to Figg. So he was the world's champion--- of two different set of rules for a decade.

The counter-argument is simple, he didn't beat the champions (or best fighters) of other continents. So, like I said, it's debatable. My opinion is that he was the champion of the world, but I wouldn't argue with people who believe he was only the champion of America.

Sullivan did beat Mitchell and Greenfield and Slade and a few others who were foreign champions or contenders--- for me there's no comparison to what Sullivan did and what 43 previous champions did (I would say 44 but Mace did a helluva lot).

Champions from Sullivan's time onwards followed his blueprint. Sullivan was hyperactive as hell. He was all over the World--- unlike the majority of the champions before him who only fought the best of their nation or city. He was truly the first globe trotter champion.

I have never understood the argument from some who maintain Sullivan didn't fight the best in the world--- I think it's a mistake to assume alot of his opponents were nobody's when the fact is records from that time were practically non-existent.

does there exist a map as to were they were buried ?
whose skeleton do you think that is in the Victorian Age cemetery
over near the New Covent Garden Market in South-West London

Caractacus wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 19:25 does there exist a map as to were they were buried ?
whose skeleton do you think that is in the Victorian Age cemetery
over near the New Covent Garden Market in South-West London

I do think that information exists, burial sites anyways. Alot of these men, mind you, ended up penniless. As for the prizefighter recently exhumed, no clue, unless I wrote out where everyone was buried. I have no clue where things are in the UK so someone would just have to do guess work.

The earlier fighters of the calibre of Belcher and Cribb would have made short work of John L

dr_devious wrote: ↑16 Dec 2018, 17:18 The earlier fighters of the calibre of Belcher and Cribb would have made short work of John L

From what I have read, Cribb was considered "the luckiest fighter alive" because time and again he would be losing fights only to manage to win when all seemed lost.

I don't think any stationary man, from the era of Figg-Mace could have beaten Sullivan, which is what Cribb was. Tough, yes, but maybe too tough for his own good.

Belcher would have been difficult because he could box and punch, but, I tend to think Sullivan's explosiveness and power and speed--- yes, Sully was a fast handed man--- would have overcome Belcher.

Now, John Jackson and Daniel Mendoza and similar styled men would have been problematic because they were speedballs. Historically, Sullivan wasn't good against such men.

I've read that the regency era of bareknuckle boxing was considered to be far superior to the later American era.

according to John L. Sullivan's autobiography.
When he toured Great Britain in November/December 1887
he met Jem Mace who was a guest of honour at his exhibition
also Sullivan visted Ireland he visited the natural amphitheater
at Donnelly's Hollow at Curragh of Kildare
at there epic fight there December 1815 between Daniel Donnelly and the English Champion George Cooper
( there footprints could still be seen in the soft green sod as tourist had been stepping into them since after the fight..

http:/www.curragh.info/landmarks/donnelly.htm