BoxRec

Two of the most fearless fighters of all-time and two of the deepest, most unbelievable resume's of all-time.

I did a rough look through their hall of fame opponents to measure their relative numbers and came out with Langford having defeated 11 men inducted in the IBHOF for 28 wins with an overall record of 28-17-18-1 NC against fellow inductees. Langford obviously accumulated a lot of losses in his mid to late 30's against Harry Wills. Greb didn't fight until he was roughly 40 like Langford, but nonetheless had a very similar amount of fights around 300. I counted, I believe 15 members of the IBHOF that Greb had defeated for 34 victories with an overall record of 34-10-4. I give credence to newspaper decisions rather than lumping in with the draws.

Both men were obviously the smaller man a lot of the time. Greb being a middleweight who was also one of the top 5 (arguably) light heavyweights of all-time, also having beaten a number of heavyweights. Langford being more of a middleweight who'd had success as a welterweight and beat more topheavyweights than Greb. It appears that Langford's career started a little hotter out of the gate perhaps due to his punching power whereas Greb was able to maintain longer winning streaks.

Both generally appear in nearly all the top 10's of all-time, very often in most top 5's.

So, who had a better career?

Who'd have won head-to-head knowing what we know?

Would either have been Heavyweight champion had they not been denied a shot?

Here are the lists of hall of famers both defeated. Feel free to add any others that I've missed -

Harry Greb
Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Kid Norfolk
Maxie Rosenbloom
Mickey Walker
Tiger Flowers
Billy Miske
Mike Gibbons
Tommy Gibbons
Jimmy Slattery
Battling Levinsky
Jack Blackburn
Jack Dillon
Mike O'Dowd
Leo Houck


Sam Langford
George Godfredy
Stanley Ketchel
Joe Gans
Jack Blackburn
Kid Norfolk
Tiger Flowers
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Dixie Kid
Harry Wills
Jim Jeanette
Sam McVey

Greb had the better career, but fought mostly at light heavyweight. At HW, I'd have no clue, but based on records and size, I'd have to go with Greb. Greb would never have been HW champion. Although his five fights with Gene Tunney were back and forth tussle classics.

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:29 Greb had the better career, but fought mostly at light heavyweight. At HW, I'd have no clue, but based on records and size, I'd have to go with Greb. Greb would never have been HW champion. Although his five fights with Gene Tunney were back and forth tussle classics.

I guess it would have been Greb's speed, awkwardness, volume and stamina vs. Langford's more polished technique and much heavier punches.

It would appear that Greb really had the upper hand on Tunney in the series but got stiffed more than once. I'm curious as to how he'd have fared vs. Dempsey. It does appear Langford could have gotten the measure of Johnson had he been given the chance at the title.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:29 Greb had the better career, but fought mostly at light heavyweight. At HW, I'd have no clue, but based on records and size, I'd have to go with Greb. Greb would never have been HW champion. Although his five fights with Gene Tunney were back and forth tussle classics.

I guess it would have been Greb's speed, awkwardness, volume and stamina vs. Langford's more polished technique and much heavier punches.

It would appear that Greb really had the upper hand on Tunney in the series but got stiffed more than once. I'm curious as to how he'd have fared vs. Dempsey. It does appear Langford could have gotten the measure of Johnson had he been given the chance at the title.

I just don't see a polished technique as you say. Typical flailing puncher of the times.

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 14:02

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:29 Greb had the better career, but fought mostly at light heavyweight. At HW, I'd have no clue, but based on records and size, I'd have to go with Greb. Greb would never have been HW champion. Although his five fights with Gene Tunney were back and forth tussle classics.

I guess it would have been Greb's speed, awkwardness, volume and stamina vs. Langford's more polished technique and much heavier punches.

It would appear that Greb really had the upper hand on Tunney in the series but got stiffed more than once. I'm curious as to how he'd have fared vs. Dempsey. It does appear Langford could have gotten the measure of Johnson had he been given the chance at the title.

I just don't see a polished technique as you say. Typical flailing puncher of the times.

I mean in comparison to what Greb's style was described as. I think Langford threw nice punches and had all the punches in his arsenal and appears good at distance and inside relative to the era.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 14:08

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 14:02

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:37
I guess it would have been Greb's speed, awkwardness, volume and stamina vs. Langford's more polished technique and much heavier punches.

It would appear that Greb really had the upper hand on Tunney in the series but got stiffed more than once. I'm curious as to how he'd have fared vs. Dempsey. It does appear Langford could have gotten the measure of Johnson had he been given the chance at the title.

I just don't see a polished technique as you say. Typical flailing puncher of the times.

I mean in comparison to what Greb's style was described as. I think Langford threw nice punches and had all the punches in his arsenal and appears good at distance and inside relative to the era.

It's true that Greb was known for all out fighting, but he was a fine boxer, as his record indicates. Ah the problems of comparing different era fighters.

These are two of the three greatest fighters of all time in my view. Grab has the better career for sure. Nobody matches his career. However head to head, im not sure. Its a tough one but id take greb to win on pts. Hard to say without film but all indications are he was a faster and better boxer. Langford had a huge huge punch for his size no doubt.

Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:49 Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

I hardly see that as a determining factor. To me just look at the five fights with Tunney.

Greb was the most consistent fighter of any weight class of all time. Greb's arguably the greatest Middleweight of all time also. However, Sam Langford was the greatest fighter of all time period and arguably the greatest pound per pound as well.

Greb vs Dempsey would have been very interesting. Apparently Dempsey wanted no part of him after they fought an exhibition. Dempsey vs Langford would have been great too, but Dempsey admits in his autobiography that Langford was the only fighter he intentionally flat out ducked.

Greb vs Langford would have been a candidate for the greatest fight of all time. The Windmill versus The Little Giant. And idk who would have won. That's a trilogy if there ever was one. In a "one go" I'll go with Greb, but I'll go with Langford winning a series because Langford only got better and better in return matches.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:49 Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

Newspaper decisions tend to get dismissed often I see but they really shouldn't. In reality they could be even more reliable than a 1 or 3 judge system because it may be based on more than three newspapers. Perhaps the prestige isn't there in some of the "wins" but the action and went happened in the ring can't be erased.

Great thread. Really digs deep into both fighters. Thanks to all!

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:51

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:49 Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

I hardly see that as a determining factor. To me just look at the five fights with Tunney.

Well first of all, only three had official decisions.
The Tunney fights by themselves aren't enough to put Greb over Langford. Langford had a phenomenal career. One win over Tunney (great as that is) doesn't trump it.
You have to look at many, many more of Langford and Greb's career if you really want to get serious about this. .
And you have to decide how much weight to give the newspaper decision, because Greb had a zillion of them.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 11:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:51

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:49 Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

I hardly see that as a determining factor. To me just look at the five fights with Tunney.

Well first of all, only three had official decisions.
The Tunney fights by themselves aren't enough to put Greb over Langford. Langford had a phenomenal career. One win over Tunney (great as that is) doesn't trump it.
You have to look at many, many more of Langford and Greb's career if you really want to get serious about this. .
And you have to decide how much weight to give the newspaper decision, because Greb had a zillion of them.

If nothing else, this thread made for some real good debates. We all agree that both fighters are ATG and near the top of the scale!

Langford....
Better all around fighter.

Blackburn is in the hall as a non-participant for his training, not for his fighting. Adding him skews both guys numbers.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 11:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:51

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 16:49 Greb and Langford are two of the very best. Hard to pick between them. A major factor (which nobody ever wants to talk about) is that Greb had so many no-decision fights. How much value do we put in them?

If we count them as much as an official decision, than the the edge goes to Greb.
If you dismiss them entirely, then the edge goes to Langford.

I hardly see that as a determining factor. To me just look at the five fights with Tunney.

Well first of all, only three had official decisions.
The Tunney fights by themselves aren't enough to put Greb over Langford. Langford had a phenomenal career. One win over Tunney (great as that is) doesn't trump it.
You have to look at many, many more of Langford and Greb's career if you really want to get serious about this. .
And you have to decide how much weight to give the newspaper decision, because Greb had a zillion of them.

Greb doesnt need just one win. Look at the hall of fame wins on his record as opposed to Langfords. Langford has one win over a guy who might be considered the best in his class (Gans) and Langford had a weight and size advantage in that fight. Greb beat numerous men who could contend as the greatest fighter of their class.

Greb beat Walker, Loughran, Tunney, and Gibbons.

Langford beat Wills, Jeannette, McVea, O'Brien, and Gans.

You can make a decent argument that Langford's victims list were just as impressive or even better.

Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

klompton wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 12:45 Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

Agree on Wills, Jeanette and McVey's relative standing all-time but I think it definitely helps Langford's case that he was severely undersized in comparison to them so whilst those fighters aren't of the class of Gibbons, Loughran, Walker etc; the physical difference Langford overcame bridges the gap enough to make the wins comparable in quality at least. That's strictly from my point of view of course.

Re: Langford-Gans, I don't know how the size difference looked between the two but Langford may have only been 17 or 18 so may not have been that much bigger even though Gans was a fairly small lightweight. Langford's inexperience vs. Gans in his peak when he was beating everyone he fought definitely adds more weight to that win too IMO. I'd love to have seen that fight. It sounded like it was fairly close and Gans did very well early. It's possible his fight from the day prior may have been a factor too. That fight probably made both so much better especially Langford who if I recall correctly said Gans was the greatest fighter of all-time.

Anyway, my vote is for Greb over Langford. I think both would be in my all-time top three.

FYI - I just finished your book and found it thoroughly enjoyable with so many excellent details and such great information in addition to the pictures. I'd love to see more features like that but understand it's such a difficult task. I'd love to do one myself on Eder Jofre but I simply don't have the time and I'd imagine the documentation of things in Brazil are a lot more difficult to obtain especially since I don't speak the language. I speak to his soon via google translate!

klompton wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 12:45 Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

This was a great comp between two ATG's. Amongst the best and most even matchups as the thread bares.

klompton wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 12:45 Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

Have never seen anyone rank Walker, Gibbons, Dillion or Loughran as the best of their weight class either. The only opponent I ever seen rated #1 one is Tunney, and that has been pretty rare.
It should also be taken into consideration that Langford was greatly outweighed in some of these fights.

You could argue that Walker had not reached his best as a a middleweight when Greb beat him.

- Time for clarity.

Last refuge of a scoundrel, politician, and lawyer is to quote a person out of context to adulterate what transpired for theatrical ill purpose. Dempsey in his first foray into NY said he ducked Langford AFTER Jack had fought two fringe contenders without being paid, sleeping on park benches, standing in bread lines, and suffering from a broken rib without his manager there. Where's the idiot on this board who would volunteer to fight #1 fighter in full pomp under such horrid conditions?

Sam at his best against the best fighter at the time he fought were the Jeanette fights, and half blind Sam beat Wills in his first two encounters, all of whom could handle all of Greb's comp and Greb too.

Much good to say about Greb, and as pointed out, we can only put forth our logic and fight plan. It was said Sam was in kid gloves vs Ketchel hoping for the rematch title shot, but the fight reports indicate a savage fight. Ketchel had the power and unrelenting style to beat Greb as well, at least a 50-50 fight. Ketchel was very active before he was gunned down, so his demise at the hands of drugs another wives' tale. Most fighters tended to be over liquored between fights anyway.