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Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 21 Jan 2019, 06:52
by mchuffy
How would Ike Ibeabuchi and Edwin Valero have done had their careers not been cut short. Could either of them achieved a H.O.F status if things were different? How would their careers have panned out in your eyes if they had both stayed out of trouble?
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 21 Jan 2019, 11:57
by oogiebe
mchuffy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2019, 06:52
How would Ike Ibeabuchi and Edwin Valero have done had their careers not been cut short. Could either of them achieved a H.O.F status if things were different? How would their careers have panned out in your eyes if they had both stayed out of trouble?
Throw in Tony Ayala Jr.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 21 Jan 2019, 20:42
by BoxBuzz
There have been folks who have championed both of these names to be among "the best of the best".
I was not one of these folks.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 21 Jan 2019, 23:04
by Nile4000
oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Jan 2019, 11:57
mchuffy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2019, 06:52
How would Ike Ibeabuchi and Edwin Valero have done had their careers not been cut short. Could either of them achieved a H.O.F status if things were different? How would their careers have panned out in your eyes if they had both stayed out of trouble?
Throw in Tony Ayala Jr.
Ayala wouldn't have gotten past Moore or Hearns, but would have been a solid contender.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 22 Jan 2019, 12:47
by gilgamesh
There were talks around the time of his death of wanting to match Edwin Valero with Juan Manuel Marquez. I believe Marquez would've dominated him quite severely, and stopped in a one sided fight, and from there the aura around Valero would've been gone, and he would've been just another fighter. Just another fighter that went on to win some, and lose some, but usually lose to the top guys because he wasn't at that skill level. To me he struck me as maybe a hair's breath better than a John Molina type.
Ike Ibeabuchi would've been trouble for most of the Heavyweights of the time. I can't see him being able to best Lennox or Holyfield up until about late 2000 at least, but I think he would've been trouble for your Brewster's, Ruiz's, and obviously Chris Byrd's. Would've been interesting to see how he would've done with the Kiltschko's too. I don't think he would've been a legend, but he would've been a formidable guy that got more noteworthy wins than he did. Like I say I can't imagine he couldn't have beaten at least the Ruiz's and the Brewster's of the world. Maybe the Rahman's as well.
I stop short at thinking he could beat Lennox though.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 22 Jan 2019, 12:48
by oogiebe
gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 12:47
There were talks around the time of his death of wanting to match Edwin Valero with Juan Manuel Marquez. I believe Marquez would've dominated him quite severely, and stopped in a one sided fight, and from there the aura around Valero would've been gone, and he would've been just another fighter. Just another fighter that went on to win some, and lose some, but usually lose to the top guys because he wasn't at that skill level. To me he struck me as maybe a hair's breath better than a John Molina type.
Ike Ibeabuchi would've been trouble for most of the Heavyweights of the time. I can't see him being able to best Lennox or Holyfield up until about late 2000 at least, but I think he would've been trouble for your Brewster's, Ruiz's, and obviously Chris Byrd's. Would've been interesting to see how he would've done with the Kiltschko's too. I don't think he would've been a legend, but he would've been a formidable guy that got more noteworthy wins than he did. Like I say I can't imagine he couldn't have beaten at least the Ruiz's and the Brewster's of the world. Maybe the Rahman's as well.
I stop short at thinking he could beat Lennox though.
Nice post Gil. What about Tony Ayala Jr.?
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 22 Jan 2019, 13:05
by gilgamesh
oogiebe wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 12:48
gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 12:47
There were talks around the time of his death of wanting to match Edwin Valero with Juan Manuel Marquez. I believe Marquez would've dominated him quite severely, and stopped in a one sided fight, and from there the aura around Valero would've been gone, and he would've been just another fighter. Just another fighter that went on to win some, and lose some, but usually lose to the top guys because he wasn't at that skill level. To me he struck me as maybe a hair's breath better than a John Molina type.
Ike Ibeabuchi would've been trouble for most of the Heavyweights of the time. I can't see him being able to best Lennox or Holyfield up until about late 2000 at least, but I think he would've been trouble for your Brewster's, Ruiz's, and obviously Chris Byrd's. Would've been interesting to see how he would've done with the Kiltschko's too. I don't think he would've been a legend, but he would've been a formidable guy that got more noteworthy wins than he did. Like I say I can't imagine he couldn't have beaten at least the Ruiz's and the Brewster's of the world. Maybe the Rahman's as well.
I stop short at thinking he could beat Lennox though.
Nice post Gil. What about Tony Ayala Jr.?
I've read about him, but unlike the other two I've never watched him fight so I'll refrain from any comment about what I think he would've been capable of.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 22 Jan 2019, 13:08
by oogiebe
gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 13:05
oogiebe wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 12:48
gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Jan 2019, 12:47
There were talks around the time of his death of wanting to match Edwin Valero with Juan Manuel Marquez. I believe Marquez would've dominated him quite severely, and stopped in a one sided fight, and from there the aura around Valero would've been gone, and he would've been just another fighter. Just another fighter that went on to win some, and lose some, but usually lose to the top guys because he wasn't at that skill level. To me he struck me as maybe a hair's breath better than a John Molina type.
Ike Ibeabuchi would've been trouble for most of the Heavyweights of the time. I can't see him being able to best Lennox or Holyfield up until about late 2000 at least, but I think he would've been trouble for your Brewster's, Ruiz's, and obviously Chris Byrd's. Would've been interesting to see how he would've done with the Kiltschko's too. I don't think he would've been a legend, but he would've been a formidable guy that got more noteworthy wins than he did. Like I say I can't imagine he couldn't have beaten at least the Ruiz's and the Brewster's of the world. Maybe the Rahman's as well.
I stop short at thinking he could beat Lennox though.
Nice post Gil. What about Tony Ayala Jr.?
I've read about him, but unlike the other two I've never watched him fight so I'll refrain from any comment about what I think he would've been capable of.
He was an animal in the ring. Give him a look.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 23 Jan 2019, 11:39
by Ambling Alp II
Why is it that like clockwork, people start talking about Ike Ibeabuchi every January? It's kind of weird.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 24 Jan 2019, 05:09
by Onetimeonly
Ike was a much better fighter, valero was a ko waiting to happen. I think both of their mental defences would have came out under bright lights. I'd have favored a prime katsidis over Edwin.
Re: Predict the past ( Ike & Edwin).
Posted: 25 Jan 2019, 03:23
by jas80s
Valero is an interesting case. I recall watching a few of his fights before he fought DeMarco and I was less than impressed. In fact, I thought he pretty much sucked. His chin was in the air, his hands were down, he didn't jab...it just went on and on, I thought this guy is going to get exposed, and badly. And, if it wasn't DeMarco (who also failed to blow me away) I figured it wouldn't take long.
Then I watched the DeMarco fight and Valero was a thousand percent better, it was weird. His defense was tighter, he moved and boxed and basically dismantled DeMarco and he did so with patience and precision. I'm not going to say he would have been some world beater, only that I think he had the sense to fight smarter when he respected what was coming back at him.
I think Ibeabuchi gets exalted a bit too much in these discussions, while people tend to have more measured views on Valero. To me, they both would have been good, but neither of them would have been at the top pound for pound.