BoxRec

I think a lot of it is that the only film of him is his poor performace against Papke, and farce against Jack Johnson, both when he was in decline.

Seeing reports, and the high opinions held by people who saw him, you get a glimpse of a fighter that was pretty special. On top of that, he actually has a pretty strong resume, with wins of Mike and Jack Twin Sullivan, Billy Papke, Hugo Kelly, and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.

Even when he was well in decline, and giving up weight, he still gave Langford a close fight, which Langford at most seems to have edged, and was causing him problems.

Ketchel's 32 round war with Joe Thomas
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn ... hel+thomas


Ketchel's first fight with Papke
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn ... d-1/seq-6/

Ketchel KOing Mike Twin Sullivan
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d ... an-------1


Ketchel KOing Jack Twin Sullivan
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn ... l+sullivan


Ketchel KOing Hugo Kelly
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d ... -en--20--1


Ketchel KOing Philidelpha Jack O'Brien
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn ... el+Ketchel

I think he tends to be forgotten about a little bit today when it comes to list the all time greats at Mw

It happens. Who was once perceived as great in earlier eras gets forgotten or dismissed as time goes on--- mostly because people today only care about the sound byte or clip, rather than actually research.

Ketchell, had he not been murdered, would have been the middleweight champion for another decade--- look at the names that followed him, and one can see the easy pickings he'd of had.

Still, at that, he's among the top ten middleweights of all time "as is". Just how high up the list is a matter of debate, but I'd say no higher than #5 right behind Greb & Robinson & Monzon & Hagler.

10 years might be pushing it as he admitted to friends that he only wanted to fight 1 or 2 more times and buy land and I think his biz partner said that his health wasn't great either as he had early signs of????...can't remember what it was called back then ... .
I do agree though had he took care of himself and continued he woulda steamrolled those future claimants..and deserves to be mentioned in all time great middleweight discussions.

No. He's often cited as one of the All Time Great Middleweights by historians in spite of having a relatively brief career compared to many of his contemporaries.

its nifty to say he has isnt it

No!

If anything he's overrated, though I will say not as much as he used to be.

What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

The film is terrible. Benny Leonard is silky smooth, even on grainy jacked film.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:57

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

The film is terrible. Benny Leonard is silky smooth, even on grainy jacked film.

Tunney in the first Dempsey fight was quality as well, could easily have took place today

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 15:10

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:57

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

The film is terrible. Benny Leonard is silky smooth, even on grainy jacked film.

Tunney in the first Dempsey fight was quality as well, could easily have took place today

Have you watched Benny?

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 15:11

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 15:10

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:57

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

The film is terrible. Benny Leonard is silky smooth, even on grainy jacked film.

Tunney in the first Dempsey fight was quality as well, could easily have took place today

Have you watched Benny?

Ive never seen Leonard fight Saad, youve maybe noticed in the Classics thread on here, I started off watching classic fights from a list, it was a top 100 but for instance Ali/Frazier 3 was number 1 but I watched the first 2 first and I done that all way through the list so I could see all the match ups between guys instead of just the best, so out of the 100 I ended up probably watching near 300 seeing as these classics usually involved trilogies and more, after i'd finished the list, I watched aboit another 50 famous fights that I'd never seen, now I'm going through fighters careers, ive got these boxing mags my mrs picked me up from charity shop a couple years back, about 75 each profiling a specific boxer and I'm going the careers of the boxers in order of magazine, it sounds tragic I know mate

Anyway I'm about 50 odd in and I know Benny Leonard's in it so i'll be watching him soon, just now I'm watching Carpentier, got the fight with Siki next when he lost his title

Yeah, I always keep up with your thread. You have nice write ups and it brings back memories. Do me a favor and watch Benny next. Carpentier is really overrated to me.

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

I believe the consensus is that Johnson vs Jeffries is one of the best fights of all time--- albeit not on it's merits of two-sided action between two prime athlete's.

It was the first "Fight of the Century", and until then there was no bigger prizefight in the history of the world--- $101,000 winner take all--- essentially in a fight to the finish (45 rounds) with itty bitty three ounce gloves under the blazing sun.

Jefferies loss to Johnson was considered something of an international calamity. Something many people refused to believe until it was seen on film before their very eyes--- the unbeaten, invincible Jeffries rendered to a bloody pulp was considered the most remarkable feat; mind you there was no understanding in those days that long layoffs, etc could render someone completely useless.

But if it makes you feel any better, Johnson decades later would say that had he fought Jeffries at his best he wouldn't have won--- as he considered Jeffries the greatest of all time. True boxing insiders knew damn well Jeffries couldn't do it--- Bob Fitzsimmons was adamant that it couldn't be done.

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 15:34 Yeah, I always keep up with your thread. You have nice write ups and it brings back memories. Do me a favor and watch Benny next. Carpentier is really overrated to me.

I don't think he is that highly rated.

A lot of people thought he deserved to beat Joe Jeanette when he was 20 and 168.5Ibs, and he has some solid wins like over Gunboat Smith, so he was by no means terrible, though not an ATG.

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

I've never seen anyone call Johnson Vs Jeffries a great fight. Jeffries was a shell, and it was a total mismatch.

Here's an actually good match from around that time,

BitPlayer wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 13:39

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

I've never seen anyone call Johnson Vs Jeffries a great fight. Jeffries was a shell, and it was a total mismatch.

Here's an actually good match from around that time,

Thanks for posting this!
From a technical standpoint, there were bad, average, great fighters in every era.
Sometimes it is tough with the quality of the film.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 15:16

BitPlayer wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 13:39

handsofstone wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 14:35 What ive learned about watching a lot of the so called greats from yesteryear is that they were dogsh1t technically, granted the sport hadn't evolved as it has today and if those champs fought today they'd be great fighters and a lot better fundamentely but i read about these so called great boxers and their shite, I'm no expert but i know enough about the sport and ive seen enough fights to know nobody can change my mind regarding old fighters

I was reading a book the other day about Johnson/Jeffries being one of the best fights of all time, its effing abysmal

I've never seen anyone call Johnson Vs Jeffries a great fight. Jeffries was a shell, and it was a total mismatch.

Here's an actually good match from around that time,

Thanks for posting this!
From a technical standpoint, there were bad, average, great fighters in every era.
Sometimes it is tough with the quality of the film.

How would you like to count those knock downs? I couldn't tell if the ref was restarting the count each time he Nelson chose to go down; but in the end it looked like a push-down ended the fight.

After a while, it looked like Nelson was hurt so badly that Moran didn't have to hit him with much to put him down. Had there been a neutral corner rule it may have helped Nelson.
Moran was a heckuva fighter. We probably don't talk about him nearly enough.

Speaking of Battling Nelson, one should see footage of his absolutely incredible 40-round bout with Ad Wolgast. In that bout, the fighters set a tremendous pace and displayed an astounding amount of heart.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 15:55 Speaking of Battling Nelson, one should see footage of his absolutely incredible 40-round bout with Ad Wolgast. In that bout, the fighters set a tremendous pace and displayed an astounding amount of heart.

- Chuck Johnston

Agreed.