BoxRec

I'm not sure how he would fair against the giant heavyweights of today. Likely, he would have to change his style. What do you think?

He'd do well. They'd pose new problems but he was big enough to be able to deal with them. Someone with a similar style like Jersey Joe but who was much smaller probably could not.

Interestingly, Ali found smaller men more difficult than bigger men.

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 10:51 He'd do well. They'd pose new problems but he was big enough to be able to deal with them. Someone with a similar style like Jersey Joe but who was much smaller probably could not.

Interestingly, Ali found smaller men more difficult than bigger men.

Very true that...such as Cooper, Patterson and Jones.....his speed was his asset...amongst a set of truly sublime skills and natural ability and most of all his mindset as a winner.

Yes, he would.

At cruiserweight. Not heavyweight.

Everytime we've seen a 6', 6'1", 6'2", 6'3" man weighing roughly 220 compete today they're incapable of getting passed a certain level of competition.

The big men are bigger, faster, stronger & more athletic. Ali fought men nearly as tall, but not as skillful. Ali fought men nearly as heavy, but not as powerful. Ali fought men just as powerful, but not as fast. Ali fought men just as fast, but not as tough. Ali fought men just as tough, but not as big. Etc etc etc.

He never fought a man who was a culmination of size, power, skills, speed, etc--- therefore we don't know how to gauge him against the 6'6"+ 240+ athlete's of today who can nullify a smaller man's speed effectively.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:09 At cruiserweight. Not heavyweight.

Everytime we've seen a 6', 6'1", 6'2", 6'3" man weighing roughly 220 compete today they're incapable of getting passed a certain level of competition.

The big men are bigger, faster, stronger & more athletic. Ali fought men nearly as tall, but not as skillful. Ali fought men nearly as heavy, but not as powerful. Ali fought men just as powerful, but not as fast. Ali fought men just as fast, but not as tough. Ali fought men just as tough, but not as big. Etc etc etc.

He never fought a man who was a culmination of size, power, skills, speed, etc--- therefore we don't know how to gauge him against the 6'6"+ 240+ athlete's of today who can nullify a smaller man's speed effectively.

what is your standard for success?

guys like whyte, ortiz, pov...they are 6'4, 6'3, 6'2 and are ranked by many all in the top 5/6

ali wouldve danced circles around plodding luis or wouldve peppered pov into a tomato

the big 3 guys at the top are big, but with flaws to exploit. ali would certanly at minimum have plenty of moments vs the likes of wilder. 6'3 artur szpilka did for nearly 10 rounds using a box and move and counter strategy

Rankings don't mean anything. You ought to know that by now. Just because some syndicate or organization says somebody is top ten or five doesn't mean that's the reality. BoxRec ranks slot of people higher than they should be.

Ali was 6'3" and 215 pounds. Period. Peak, optimum, prime Ali anyways. It's unavoidable. Look at the likes of David Haye, James Toney, Roy Jones, Tomasz Adamek, Steve Cunningham, etc--- all similar in size and all came up short.

Let's be honest here. They may have been good enough to beat some average heavyweight who outweighed them by 10-20 pounds, or against some big lummox who couldn't crack an egg, but not against the legitimate real deal solid heavyweights.

Ali wouldn't have been effective against Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko Brothers, or the likes of Tyson Fury--- because even if guys like Eddie Chambers were twice as fast, they wouldn't have won anyway.

Ali could be counter punched to death--- as Norton demonstrated. Ali was a horrible infighter--- as Joe Frazier demonstrated. I don't think Ali could dart in and out and escape unscathed, let alone score a ton of punches against men who could clinch him off the bat and stop his momentum.

Short answer: no -- but take these HWs today back to 1964 and they wouldn't be no where as big. Ali would have beaten them. -- How come no one ever asks this question in reverse?

APerno wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:29 Short answer: no -- but take these HWs today back to 1964 and they wouldn't be no where as big. Ali would have beaten them. -- How come no one ever asks this question in reverse?

It's interesting to speculate. Money was less then. Gloves were smaller; up until the 1980s the rule was everyone under 154 wore 6oz gloves & everyone 154 & above wore 8oz gloves. Referees weren't as squeamish. Fights were longer. And quite frankly there was far more competition back them--- every town seemed to have boxing gyms once upon a time. It was harder to get your opportunities.

Then again... For whatever reason... Tall, muscular guys (especially white guys) have always translated to money... So if they failed, I'd argue it would be because they were rushed to the top rather than following the "iron sharpens iron" principle that made men so great in the past because they were constantly fighting.

Short answer: hell yes.
Can't believe we even have to discuss this.

Love homicides comment "Look at the likes of David Haye, James Toney, Roy Jones, Tomasz Adamek, Steve Cunningham, etc--- all similar in size and all came up short. "

Come frikkin on. We are really comparing these guys to Ali?
How is Jones and Toney similar in size anyway?
How did Roy Jones come up short? He fought one fight at heavyweight and weighed 193, and guess what? He won.

Pudgy Chris Byrd had a lot of success at heavyweight and he was nowhere near the fighter Ali was.
Look at Wilder. Guy is not outweighed in every fight and they can't beat him. No where near the fighter Ali was.

You have to factor in how good someone was. Scales and tape measures don't win fights. Ali was light years better than any heavyweight today. There is no way that anyone of these guys could handle his speed.

Is this some late April Fools joke?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:24 Rankings don't mean anything. You ought to know that by now. Just because some syndicate or organization says somebody is top ten or five doesn't mean that's the reality. BoxRec ranks slot of people higher than they should be.

Ali was 6'3" and 215 pounds. Period. Peak, optimum, prime Ali anyways. It's unavoidable. Look at the likes of David Haye, James Toney, Roy Jones, Tomasz Adamek, Steve Cunningham, etc--- all similar in size and all came up short.

Let's be honest here. They may have been good enough to beat some average heavyweight who outweighed them by 10-20 pounds, or against some big lummox who couldn't crack an egg, but not against the legitimate real deal solid heavyweights.

Ali wouldn't have been effective against Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko Brothers, or the likes of Tyson Fury--- because even if guys like Eddie Chambers were twice as fast, they wouldn't have won anyway.

Ali could be counter punched to death--- as Norton demonstrated. Ali was a horrible infighter--- as Joe Frazier demonstrated. I don't think Ali could dart in and out and escape unscathed, let alone score a ton of punches against men who could clinch him off the bat and stop his momentum.

thats why i asked, what is your standard for success? if he were the 4th best hw in the world wud that be unsuccesful

The great ones find a way, and Ali was the greatest.

lets not act like the shws are not w/o problems vs smaller men either

lennox got kod by two 6'2 guys

wlad stopped by a few

wilder had plenty of issues with guy like artur 'ali' szpilka

holy beat an excellent shw in bowe

etc

jamamb wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:57 lets not act like the shws are not w/o problems vs smaller men either

lennox got kod by two 6'2 guys

wlad stopped by a few

wilder had plenty of issues with guy like artur 'ali' szpilka

holy beat an excellent shw in bowe

etc

It's true. Can't argue. You can be huge, but you have to be good as well. You can be on the smaller side and be great. "arur "ali" szpilka" LMAO!

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:52 Short answer: hell yes.
Can't believe we even have to discuss this.

Love homicides comment "Look at the likes of David Haye, James Toney, Roy Jones, Tomasz Adamek, Steve Cunningham, etc--- all similar in size and all came up short. "

Come frikkin on. We are really comparing these guys to Ali?
How is Jones and Toney similar in size anyway?
How did Roy Jones come up short? He fought one fight at heavyweight and weighed 193, and guess what? He won.

Pudgy Chris Byrd had a lot of success at heavyweight and he was nowhere near the fighter Ali was.
Look at Wilder. Guy is not outweighed in every fight and they can't beat him. No where near the fighter Ali was.

You have to factor in how good someone was. Scales and tape measures don't win fights. Ali was light years better than any heavyweight today. There is no way that anyone of these guys could handle his speed.

Is this some late April Fools joke?

When Byrd & Jones & Toney fought at heavyweight... The division was even worse than the 1980s... Hence their minute success, and even some of their "wins" ought to have an asterisk by it.

Oquendo & Golota, for example, were robbed against Byrd. Byrd's win over Vitality was a fluke, and of course he lost twice against Vladimir.

Jones... don't get me started... He fought the weakest possible guy... And the referee still have him every advantage... He never fought heavyweight again--- and I think it's obvious as to why, he knew he couldn't beat anyone else in the top ten. What he did, in truth, was no more significant than Harold Johnson beating Tom McNeeley, and hundreds of other examples. What was commonplace at one time, is seen as special now.

In terms of size yes we are comparing. And I'd argue that Adamek's accomplishments at 175 & 195, and Toney's accomplishments from 147-195 certainly are comparable or bypassing of Ali's accomplishments at one weight class. Haye (retrospectively) is a top five all-time cruiserweight. Jones (retrospectively) is a top five all-time light heavyweight. So they are all equally or comparable greats to Ali.

Regardless, no man (no matter his skills) 6'3" & 215 pounds or smaller is doing anything with guys 6'6", 6'7", 6'8", 6'9" who have similar skills & abilities. Period. I'm reminded of Tyson Fury after the Seferi fight saying it's pointless fighting "15 stone men" (210 pounds). And in this day and age that's correct.

I absolutely love Rocky Marciano and others--- and it breaks my heart admitting that they couldn't beat a Deontay Wilder--- but there comes a point when you have to stop "hero worshipping" and get into reality. Ali was not Superman, and wasn't anywhere close to it. He had his flaws. He had his limitations--- he just never faced them.

He would face them against modern heavyweights and unfortunately for those who lick his ass, Ali would be flying around the ring like Apollo Creed against Ivan Drago.

jamamb wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 15:57 lets not act like the shws are not w/o problems vs smaller men either

lennox got kod by two 6'2 guys

wlad stopped by a few

wilder had plenty of issues with guy like artur 'ali' szpilka

holy beat an excellent shw in bowe

etc

Lewis's ego cost him. Both losses easily avenged. The point in that scenario is bringing your A game always.

Wladimir Klitschko didn't really come into his own until late in his career--- but even in his greenhorn years he had Byrd all over the place. Emmanuel Stewart made him untouchable.

Wilder is a horrible boxer. No focus. Could you imagine how dangerous he would be if he had any real discipline?

Holyfield also got splattered by Bowe, and couldn't do crap with Lewis.

I don't care what anyone says. I'll never forget how everyone was scared to death that Ali would actually get killed against Foreman in Zaire. Similarly to his first fight with Liston, but Foreman was seen as an indestructible giant beast. (yeah yeah, foreman wasn't as big as today's monsters) Looking back at history it's taken for granted, but when you lived through it,, it was a different experience. Ali found a way. He always did. He was blessed extraordinary head and hand and foot speed and natural instincts you can't be taught. At 6'3" and 215, he was relatively small in comparison to top level guys today, but not that small that he couldn't win. To say he couldn't with any certainty is just foolishness. Too bad we'll never know.

White_Lightning wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 10:29 I'm not sure how he would fair against the giant heavyweights of today. Likely, he would have to change his style. What do you think?

He'd do just fine.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:35 He'd do just fine.

How do you know?

Have you ever seen Ali against a 6'7" skillful boxer with power and speed? No.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:41 How do you know?

Have you ever seen Ali against a 6'7" skillful boxer with power and speed? No.

how many of those are there today

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:41 How do you know?

Have you ever seen Ali against a 6'7" skillful boxer with power and speed? No.

jamamb wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:50 how many of those are there today

Not a one faster or nearly as skilled as Terrell. Hell fury doesn't even have more power. Lol

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:53 Not a one faster or nearly as skilled as Terrell. Hell fury doesn't even have more power. Lol

If you honestly think Terrell was that good, or that Fury has no power--- you're absolutely bonkers.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:41 How do you know?

Have you ever seen Ali against a 6'7" skillful boxer with power and speed? No.

I don't want to appear to be ganging up on you Homi, but you really need to watch a few fights of Ali's including:

-Ernie Terrell (6'6")
-Cleveland Williams
-Sonny Liston I
-George Foreman
-Duke Sabedong (6'6" 225LBS)
-Charlie Powell (6'4" 225 LBS)

And really watch what Ali could do to a man in the ring.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Apr 2019, 16:56 If you honestly think Terrell was that good, or that Fury has no power--- you're absolutely bonkers.

Fury has no decent power. Terrell was that good.