BoxRec

Who wins between two of the greatest heavyweights of all time in their prime? At their very best. The Ali of circa 1965-74 or Lewis, circa 1995-2002?

Lewis.

Ali

Ali

Lewis. A superheavyweight with mad skills and one punch KO power. With Lewis, the size difference is too much with such a good boxer. Love to Ali, but Lewis wins this.

A superheayweight knocked out by two non-superheavyweights, and could have had another loss against another non-superheavyweight in Mercer. An ailing 214lb Mavrovic dragged him into a living nightmare. Both men of course have strengths and weaknesses, and I rate Lewis very highly. but I don't think him being big settles it.

Trying to actually picture the fight, I don't see Lewis's jab landing anymore than Liston's even longer, equally brilliant jab did. And whenever Lewis had his jab taken from him he looked utterly clueless, and i can't see a desperation power punch catching Clay-Ali. I think Lennox would need to hide his face behind those big vanity sunglasses after 15 rounds vs Ali.

overhand_right wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019, 13:38 A superheayweight knocked out by two non-superheavyweights, and could have had another loss against another non-superheavyweight in Mercer. An ailing 214lb Mavrovic dragged him into a living nightmare. Both men of course have strengths and weaknesses, and I rate Lewis very highly. but I don't think him being big settles it.

Trying to actually picture the fight, I don't see Lewis's jab landing anymore than Liston's even longer, equally brilliant jab did. And whenever Lewis had his jab taken from him he looked utterly clueless, and i can't see a desperation power punch catching Clay-Ali. I think Lennox would need to hide his face behind those big vanity sunglasses after 15 rounds vs Ali.

If you're comparing losses, don't forget Ali had some too. You think Frazier beats Lewis? Or Norton? Prime vs Prime? Lewis for me.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019, 14:56 If you're comparing losses, don't forget Ali had some too. You think Frazier beats Lewis? Or Norton? Prime vs Prime? Lewis for me.

That's not the argument I was making, I was just pointing out that Lennox the superheavyweight had some serious bother with normal heavyweights. Superheavies have concomitant disadvantages--those big bodies can't fight at a pace, they struggle with stamina, their chins often don't withstand a big punch as well for some reason.

No idea whether Frazier or Norton beat Lewis, not sure it matters here. I do know that Frazier and Norton would give McCall, Rahman, Mercer and Mavrovic some serious beatings though!

overhand_right wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019, 17:04 That's not the argument I was making, I was just pointing out that Lennox the superheavyweight had some serious bother with normal heavyweights. Superheavies have concomitant disadvantages--those big bodies can't fight at a pace, they struggle with stamina, their chins often don't withstand a big punch as well for some reason.

No idea whether Frazier or Norton beat Lewis, not sure it matters here. I do know that Frazier and Norton would give McCall, Rahman, Mercer and Mavrovic some serious beatings though!

Seriously? Based on what? You have an interesting perspective. rather than waste any further time, let's agree to disagree.

its interesting to me how lewis gets ranked as such a beast h-2-h, so many times ive seen ppl say he was the best hw ever from a h2h perspective

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019, 14:56 If you're comparing losses, don't forget Ali had some too. You think Frazier beats Lewis? Or Norton? Prime vs Prime? Lewis for me.

Ali was NEVER beatin in his Prime the 60s

ClivePatrickLyons wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019, 21:43 Ali was NEVER beatin in his Prime the 60s

Very true.

Until there is a truly dynamic supremely talented 215-220 pound fighter again, we will just never know how these types of mythical match ups would play out...

Starting to think we will never see one again.....perhaps that says something.

Strange thing about Ail, to my memory, he was almost always bigger than his opponents. I find it hard to reckon how he would look bringing the fight to a much bigger man. Not saying he has no chance of course, just thinking of his fights. He was pretty darn big for his era.

Wilder who wasn't remotely as good as Ali, has been outweighed constantly and they can't beat him.

Look at the fights where Ali fought a big guy and Lewis fought a guy Ali's size:
Ali easily won decisions against Bugner and Mathis even though he was not in his prime for either.

Lewis had a ton of trouble with Mavrovic.
Lewis was unimpressive against a shot Holyfield.

Everything points to Ali winning this.

Fair enough, but comparing Wilder's opponents to Lewis is about 10 times as ridiculous as comparing Wilder to Ali......which is in and of itself pretty out there. So, I agree with your premise and much of your take, but only to a point.

wilder has fought very few guys naturally bigger then himself, i dont feel hes a good example. hes very tall with a very long reach. most opponents who outweigh him have spare tires.

you think arreola or stiverne or szpilka is 'bigger' then wilder?

jamamb wrote: ↑15 Apr 2019, 18:19 wilder has fought very few guys naturally bigger then himself, i dont feel hes a good example. hes very tall with a very long reach. most opponents who outweigh him have spare tires.

you think arreola is 'bigger' then wilder?

Fury; Ortiz; Washington; Scott were all bigger. Only two are decent opposition though. Fatter isn't bigger as you allude to.

fury and wash

but ortiz is like 4 inches short, 5 inches shorter reach, and nowhere near as cut as wilder is. luis is carrying at least 20 extra pounds. i dont think any size ortiz might have is much at all. scott again shorter, shorter reach, and softer. he was only like 10 pounds heavier anyway. a lot of guys were only slightly heavier despite being flabby

wilder almost always has height and reach on his opponents, and his smaller weights are exacerbated by opponents being chubby.

jamamb wrote: ↑15 Apr 2019, 18:25 fury and wash

but ortiz is like 4 inches short, 5 inches shorter reach, and nowhere near as cut as wilder is. luis is carrying at least 20 extra pounds. i dont think any size ortiz might have is much at all. scott again shorter, shorter reach, and softer. he was only like 10 pounds heavier anyway

wilder almost always has height and reach on his opponents, and his smaller weights are exacerbated by opponents being chubby.

Really Wilder would be facing a larger guy when/if he faces AJ. Your points on height and reach are well taken. Ortiz is three inches shorter and does carry some extra weight with 5" diff in reach. Scott isn't even worth my mention. Neither is Washington for that matter.

i think ortiz is shorter then 6'4, he was actually 6'3 on the showtime tale of tape for that and he looked a lot shorter. he was about the same height or maybe even shorter as chris hammer, who is listed at 6'2.5

they are both in socks here

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/v-ccFtEVUW4/maxresdefault.jpg

jamamb wrote: ↑15 Apr 2019, 18:31 i think ortiz is shorter then 6'4, he was actually 6'3 on the showtime tale of tape for that and he looked a lot shorter. he was about the same height as chris hammer, who is listed at 6'2.5

https://photo.BS.com/uploads/ortiz-hammer%20(4).jpg

Could be. Doesn't matter. You've convinced me.

Great photo ! no way Ortiz is 6'4". I'd love to know Fury's and Wilder's real height.

jas80s wrote: ↑15 Apr 2019, 18:06 Fair enough, but comparing Wilder's opponents to Lewis is about 10 times as ridiculous as comparing Wilder to Ali......which is in and of itself pretty out there. So, I agree with your premise and much of your take, but only to a point.

Wilder's opponents aren't nearly as good as the opponents that Lewis faced. Totally agree with you there. My point was that Wilder is had constantly been outweighed and he keeps winning. Just yet another case of of the lighter guy beating heavier guys.

Yet people often think that weight is a big advantage at heavyweights without thinking about it.. At certain point it's not. One guy weighing 240 to another weighing 220 is not an advantage. It has been proven over and over. Wilder is just another example.

My larger point here showing how Ali did against heavier opponents and how Lewis did against smaller opponents.
It all points to weight not being advantage at a certain point.
There is no advantage to being a "super heavyweight". You can actually make a better argument that it is a disadvantage.

It al points to Ali beating Lewis.

alp,, which of wilders opponents would you say are naturally bigger men then him

I don't mean to be difficult, but I think you need to clarify exactly what you mean by "naturally bigger".
I'm not sure we are all on the same page when it comes to this.