BoxRec

Since I am having a heated debate with Ambling Alp about our favorite fighter, the great Sugar Ray Leonard, in the all time top pound per pound boxers ever, where do you rank him pound per pound all time among the greats, and why?

I have seen different lists where Sugar Ray is ranked:

1. Bert Randolph Sugar ranked him at #45. That's too low or too high? It's kinda low in my estimation. Is Bert's ranking reasonable?

2. The Ring got him ranked at #10 in their list of The Best 80 Fighters of the Last 80 Years (1922-2002). Is that too low or too high? Is it reasonable?

3. I got him ranked at #18. I got my criteria and I believe that I have ranked him fairly. Out of my ranking, do you think is too low or too high?

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Harry Greb
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Floyd Mayweather, Jr
9. Willie Pep
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Louis
12. Joe Gans
13. Archie Moore
14. Benny Leonard
15. Jack Johnson
16. Tony Canzoneri
17. Carlos Monzon
18. Sugar Ray Leonard
19. Mickey Walker
20. Jimmy Wilde


Let's not judge or rank other fighters. It's all about Sugar Ray Leonard.

4. My friend Ambling Alp BELIEVES that Sugar Ray should be top ten. If so, where do you think he should be in your personal list?

5. Is there any other boxer that should be above Leonard, tell us why? Examples: Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Barney Ross, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Julio Cesar Chavez, Emile Griffith, Alexis Arguello, Eder Jofre, Manny Pacquiao or anyone else you can think of.

Let's rank him righteously. No biased opinion. Give us an objective opinion.

I think he slots in the 8-20 range. Is he the greatest Leonard?

To put it fairly, I believe he should be between the 13th to 25th slots. No more lower than 25.

I don't see him as top ten.

What he done was no more impressive to me than what was commonplace 50+ years ago when boxers were competing against various athletes in various weight classes on a regular basis. Mickey Walker, for example, was welterweight and middleweight champion who fought for the heavyweight title for crying out loud. And he got there by merit, not by favoritism. That's equally impressive to anything Leonard done.

Sam Langford, literally, could have been the world champion from lightweight to heavyweight--- and that trumps anything Leonard accomplished. Just because he never had a title doesn't erase his greatness. The man was simply the greatest.

Henry Armstrong could have held four division championship's simultaneously had he not been robbed. The man had so many wins, so many kayos. I can't imagine Leonard replicating that. In an era when there was no "Junior divisions" either. Same day weigh-in's. Little six ounce gloves.

Roberto Duran. Idc that Leonard beat him two out of three. He was the greatest Lightweight of all time. He was the first to beat Leonard. He damn near stole the middleweight title from Hagler. He had such longetivity, fighting for titles into the late 90s. It seemed the only way he could really ever lose was if he got in the way of himself.

Harry Greb... What can be said? He was the most consistent fighter of all time. Arguably the greatest middleweight of all time. He fought heavyweights ffs. He beat Gene Tunney more than once despite what the record books say. Nevermind the fact he fought half blind for nearly half of his career and Jack Dempsey wanted no part of him.

Speaking of Gene Tunney.... He and Ezzard Charles were the two best light heavyweights of all time despite never winning the title... What those guys accomplished, is certainly on par with Leonard. And while I'm at it let's throw in Archie Moore. He was a damned great middleweight who became the greatest light heavyweight title holder and fought for the heavyweight title twice. Eff it I'll throw in Billy Conn too. Easily a top 20 middleweight despite never winning that title, then becomes a top five light heavyweight, and damn near wins the heavyweight title. Certainly on par with Leonard.

And how can I forget the Sugar Man? Arguably the greatest fighter period. Five time middleweight champion. Greatest welterweight of all time. Almost won the light heavyweight title. Even after his prime he had a record most wished they could have had. The best defense, the best offense, fast and hard hitting. What Leonard had in spades, Sugar Ray had in aces.

That's ten right there. I can easily throw in the likes of James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones, Willie Pep, Sandy Saddler, Barney Ross, Eder Jofre, Battling Nelson, Joe Gans, Thomas Hearns and make that twenty.

You might throw in Kid Gavilan, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jose Naples, Tiger Flowers, Emille Griffith, Dick Tiger, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Floyd Mayweather, and Manny Pacquiao.

Even if you disagreed with one or two or three on the list, you could always substitute them with Juan Manuel Marquez (easily a top three lightweight) or someone like Jimmy Wilde or Pancho Villa.

At best, Leonard is just outside the top ten. At worst he's just outside the top thirty. Split the difference he's top twenty.

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Harry Greb
4 Jack Dempsey
5 Benny Leonard
6 Joe Louis
7 Mickey Walker
8 Sam Langford
9 Tony Canzoneri
10 Muhammad Ali
11 Joe Gans
12 Willie Pep
13 Jack Johnson
14 Barney Ross
15 Jimmy Wilde
16 Gene Tunney
17 Roberto Duran
18 Johnny Dundee
19 Rocky Marciano
20 Joe Walcott
21 Stanley Ketchel
22 Jimmy McLarnin
23 Archie Moore
24 Tommy Ryan
25 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
27 Abe Attell
28 Jack Britton
29 Bob Fitzsimmons
30 Terry McGovern
31 Ezzard Charles
32 Packey McFarland
33 Ted (Kid) Lewis
34 Marcel Cerdan
35 Kid Chocolate
36 Pascual Perez
37 Tommy Loughran
38 Jim Driscoll
39 Emile Griffith
40 Kid McCoy
41 Jim Corbett
42 Billy Conn
43 Jake LaMotta
44 Maxie Rosenbloom
45 Pancho Villa
46 Jose Napoles
47 Sandy Saddler
48 Freddie Welsh
49 Joe Frazier
50 John L. Sullivan
51 Carlos Monzon
52 Kid Gavilan
53 Pete (Kid) Herman
54 Tiger Flowers
55 Billy Petrolle
56 Sugar Ray Leonard
57 Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
58 Dick Tiger
59 Beau Jack
60 Ike Williams
61 Panama Al Brown
62 Larry Holmes
63 Carmen Basilio
64 Charley Burley
65 Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
66 Peter Jackson
67 Jimmy Barry
68 Carlos Zarate
69 Georges Carpentier
70 Tony Zale
71 Young Griffo
72 Alexis Arguello
73 Max Baer
74 Marvin Hagler
75 Battling Nelson
76 Joe Jeannette
77 Mysterious Billy Smith
78 Wilfredo Gomez
79 Jersey Joe Walcott
80 Rocky Graziano
81 Sonny Liston
82 Harry Wills
83 Ad Wolgast
84 Tommy Hearns
85 Manuel Ortiz
86 Salvador Sanchez
87 Fighting Harada
88 Willie Ritchie
89 James J. Jeffries
90 Johnny Kilbane
91 Bob Foster
92 Mike Gibbons
93 Benny Lynch
94 George (Kid) Lavigne
95 Aaron Pryor
96 Lew Jenkins
97 Carlos Ortiz
98 Jack Delaney
99 Wilfred Benitez
100 Gene Fullmer

And for giggles there is Bert Sugar's top 100 pound per pound list... And I'm certainly a lot more kinder to Leonard than Sugar's list, which is quite laughable in parts. Max Baer higher than Marvin Hagler? Wtf.

One of the worst lists you'll ever see, but even sugar didn't put battling Nelson over him. Dundee & Dempsey are insane placements here. I don't think either should be on it at all.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 01:06 One of the worst lists you'll ever see, but even sugar didn't put battling Nelson over him. Dundee & Dempsey are insane placements here. I don't think either should be on it at all.

Like I said even if someone didn't agree with my list, there are certainly better names you could switch out. My point is if I'm absurd, then what does it say of HOF'er and former editor of RING MAGAZINE Sugar?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 01:08 Like I said even if someone didn't agree with my list, there are certainly better names you could switch out. My point is if I'm absurd, then what does it say of HOF'er and former editor of RING MAGAZINE Sugar?

I'd have to see your whole list to compare to sugars laughable one, but you've listed several names that aren't even debatable. Imagine a round table discussing who was greater, ray Leonard or James toney.

Top 20 range or maybe even lower places of top 10 range.

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 02:59 Top 20 range or maybe even lower places of top 10 range.

And why?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 00:56 And for giggles there is Bert Sugar's top 100 pound per pound list... And I'm certainly a lot more kinder to Leonard than Sugar's list, which is quite laughable in parts. Max Baer higher than Marvin Hagler? Wtf.

That's the ORIGINAL LIST back in the late 80s decade. He had another list by the 2000s decade before he died. It was still RIDICULOUS in some placements in my view.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 03:26And why?

Winning Duran, Hagler, Hearns and Benitez is a helluva achievement.

And I find only the value of Duran win a bit arguable, cause there's an opinion about Duran declining after their 1st bout. But still it was an immeadiate rematch, so it's hard to argue on the value of this win.

Top 10 for me around 7/8 ...a very close first fight with Duran then making Duran quit plus beating Hearns ,benitiz and hagler along with the fact he was a wonderful fighter to watch with no weaknesses he could box he could fight

To place him you have to consider all the other fighters. It seems to me that there's a definite consensus amongst us all of the top first few. By and large they are usually

Greb, srr, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, Duran, moore

So that's 7. The next group usually includes pep, Ali, Louis, b Leonard, Mayweather. I think Leonard is a hair outside these so for me he's about 13-16.

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 03:45 Winning Duran, Hagler, Hearns and Benitez is a helluva achievement.

And I find only the value of Duran win a bit arguable, cause there's an opinion about Duran declining after their 1st bout. But still it was an immeadiate rematch, so it's hard to argue on the value of this win.

Fair enough. His 4 wins against Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Marvelous Marvin carry a lot of weight in my view.

But, my problem with his career was that it was way too short compared to other REAL GREATS that were also remarkable. His first 5 years in the ring (1977-82) was golden. And we wanted some more if him. Fights with Aaron Pryor, Marvelous in '82 or '83, a rematch with Hearns and a third fight with Duran somewhere around '83 or '84 was like missing. He didn't had to fight them back to back to back, but at least had about 20 fights in that 1982-87 time frame. He only had one against Kevin Howard and retired.

He should have stayed retired. Because after 1984, his career was A TOTAL CIRCUS. A TOTAL JOKE:
1. GOT dropped by Kevin Howard. Who is he?

2. Beats a FADING Marvelous. The best thing he ever did after 1984. It's true, Sugar Ray had one fight in 5 years, but, still, the comeback to many was like premeditated and calculated. He saw Marvelous slipping and he challenged him. That's my view. Still, a great win.

3. Wins two crowns in one night against Donny Lalonde? Really?

4. Tommy Hearns dropped him twice in the rematch. A rematch that took 8 years in the making. Both were not at the top of their games, but it was a very competitive fight. The DRAW took a taste of people's mouth. Hearns won clearly in my view. This rematch should have been between 1982 and 1986. Not 1989.

5. Ran and ran and ran against Duran. And Duran didn't do anything to help the case. Both looked like dung, especially Duran. I think both knew that it was their last BIG PAYDAY and it showed. This rubber match took 9 years to do? Bollocks!

6. Maybe he should have had fights with Aaron Pryor, Donald Curry, Marlon Starling and Mike McCallum. The question is, when those fights should have happened?

And that's my take on Sugar Ray. A great boxing talent that went out too quickly. What would have happened between 1982 and 1987 if he hadn't retired? I don't know. Maybe his career would have been a greater career or maybe not. A lot of possibilities could have happened.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 10:39 Fair enough. His 4 wins against Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Marvelous Marvin carry a lot of weight in my view.

But, my problem with his career was that it was way too short compared to other REAL GREATS that were also remarkable. His first 5 years in the ring (1977-82) was golden. And we wanted some more if him. Fights with Aaron Pryor, Marvelous in '82 or '83, a rematch with Hearns and a third fight with Duran somewhere around '83 or '84 was like missing. He didn't had to fight them back to back to back, but at least had about 20 fights in that 1982-87 time frame. He only had one against Kevin Howard and retired.

He should have stayed retired. Because after 1984, his career was A TOTAL CIRCUS. A TOTAL JOKE:
1. GOT dropped by Kevin Howard. Who is he?

2. Beats a FADING Marvelous. The best thing he ever did after 1984. It's true, Sugar Ray had one fight in 5 years, but, still, the comeback to many was like premeditated and calculated. He saw Marvelous slipping and he challenged him. That's my view. Still, a great win.

3. Wins two crowns in one night against Donny Lalonde? Really?

4. Tommy Hearns dropped him twice in the rematch. A rematch that took 8 years in the making. Both were not at the top of their games, but it was a very competitive fight. The DRAW took a taste of people's mouth. Hearns won clearly in my view. This rematch should have been between 1982 and 1986. Not 1989.

5. Ran and ran and ran against Duran. And Duran didn't do anything to help the case. Both looked like dung, especially Duran. I think both knew that it was their last BIG PAYDAY and it showed. This rubber match took 9 years to do? Bollocks!

6. Maybe he should have had fights with Aaron Pryor, Donald Curry, Marlon Starling and Mike McCallum. The question is, when those fights should have happened?

And that's my take on Sugar Ray. A great boxing talent that went out too quickly. What would have happened between 1982 and 1987 if he hadn't retired? I don't know. Maybe his career would have been a greater career or maybe not. A lot of possibilities could have happened.

Good ideas overall, but I don't agree on the actual Hagler fight. It was great, that it happened, and I don't see Hagler fading, at least significantly. After all he still was a dominant reigning champ.

Again?

Btw the 2nd fight against Hearns was great as well. Leonard looked declined and should be given a loss, but the fight itself was fun to watch.

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 14:12 Again?

C'mon, oogiebe? What's your take? Of the questions above in this original post, what do you believe? Top ten or not for Sugar Ray? And why?

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 14:07 Good ideas overall, but I don't agree on the actual Hagler fight. It was great, that it happened, and I don't see Hagler fading, at least significantly. After all he still was a dominant reigning champ.

It had to happen so that there could be no intrigues of what a fight between Marvelous Marvin and Sugar Ray would have played out. Plus it was a SUPER BIG MONEY FIGHT that the people wanted to see. Just like Evander Holyfield vs Mike Tyson I. Their fight should have happened in 1991 instead of 1996. It was a great fight nonetheless, but because of Mike's legal troubles for rape, it didn't happen sooner.

I'm pretty sure he's Top 15. Though he has relatively few overall fights in his career compared to a lot of the ATG's. His resume in such a short time span is really astonishing. Victories over Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Marvin Hagler are about as good as you can get at those weights in any era. Duran is Top 10 all time to me, and Hagler is at worst a Top 4 all time Middleweight, so the fact that he holds victories over those 2 alone certainly puts him in the discussion. Add in wins over a prime Tommy Hearns, and Benitez, and you got yourself a Top 15 guy all time easily.

Not that this is any significant accomplishment, but I find it an amusing bit of history that he beat up Micky Ward's brother, and Floyd Mayweather Jr's Dad in a 2 fight span back in 1978

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 15:45 C'mon, oogiebe? What's your take? Of the questions above in this original post, what do you believe? Top ten or not for Sugar Ray? And why?

Ugh! Top 25. Great wins, but if he had continued fighting and not retired 15 times, he could've been higher. Fights like Lalonde did nothing to help his legacy.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 01:56 I'd have to see your whole list to compare to sugars laughable one, but you've listed several names that aren't even debatable. Imagine a round table discussing who was greater, ray Leonard or James toney.

I'll say Ray certainly was a better all-around fighter.... However.... Toney won titles at 160, 168, 195, and won minor titles at 175 and won the WBA heavyweight title (later to be stripped) .... P4P I'd say it's comparable to Leonard winning titles from 147-175... He didn't beat as good of guys, no, but he sure had better longetivity and one can argue despite losses to Hopkins & Jones he was the more talented but he had piss poor discipline.

Anyways, like I said earlier... Even if you didn't agree with my list... You can always swap out and put in different names... I don't usually rate heavyweights but Ali is definitely a P4P great and so is Bob Fitzsimmons and hate him or love him Wladimir Klitschko is the most dominant and best champion of the 2000's and deserves a P4P rating among the top 30-40 at least.

So swap out Toney for Fitzsimmons, even though I'm certain both Ray and Toney could beat him. It's not always about who could beat who but who accomplished more statistically.

Wlad isn't top 100. All-time rankings should be based on resume. Leonard's is outstanding. He's clearly greater than Fitz for me, toney isn't even in his league.