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Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 01 Jun 2019, 23:45
by overhand_right
A guy with Butterbean's physique and who is barely 6 feet tall just squashed the most awesome physique the heavyweight division has ever seen.
Talent and fundamentals trump 6'6'' big punching body beautifuls.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 01 Jun 2019, 23:52
by Roco
overhand_right wrote: ↑01 Jun 2019, 23:45
A guy with Butterbean's physique and who is barely 6 feet tall just squashed the most awesome physique the heavyweight division has ever seen.
Talent and fundamentals trump 6'6'' big punching body beautifuls.
Yep. You cant replace technique, basic fundamentals and stamina with muscle.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 01 Jun 2019, 23:53
by 3132DW
overhand_right wrote: ↑01 Jun 2019, 23:45
A guy with Butterbean's physique and who is barely 6 feet tall just squashed the most awesome physique the heavyweight division has ever seen.
Talent and fundamentals trump 6'6'' big punching body beautifuls.
You also can’t replace Heart.....something Joshua didn’t have tonight. He didn’t want it when it went into the trenches.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:07
by overhand_right
Exactly. I don't think there's been a more stark, extreme contrast in physiques in world heavyweight title history. The enormity of Joshua's advantages were actually incredible to behold. It literally looked like David and Goliath, with the same result too. The 'little' guy's punches were just so well schooled. And when he went down, the inner hard bastard came out. When Joshua went down, it was the beginning of the end. And all smiles after he was saved from the little fat pudding bashing him further.
It was like when you see the school bully get his comeuppance from a total nonentity no one knew could fight!
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:11
by jamamb
well if your gonna go all of one case, what about all those shorter guys aj beat
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:11
by overhand_right
Also can those of you who in recent weeks picked Joshua over Lennox Lewis and even prime Mike Tyson please repent? It's your only hope!
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:13
by overhand_right
jamamb wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 00:11
well if your gonna go all of one case, what about all those shorter guys aj beat
Well I didn't think those guys were that talented. I rewatched Ruiz/Parker and thought bloody hell, nothing hurts this guy and he lands really sweet, weighty combos when Parker attacks!
I never watched Carlos Takam and thought, here's a threat. He's just a fit guy who tries. Ruiz has a vicious streak and is clearly gifted.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:46
by coneye
Heavy weight boxing the fat guy is not always unfit , Ruiz , proved he could go the distance he had /has fast hands , and is a good counter puncher , his distanceing with the footwork was excellent , and above all his mind set beat AJ , . For me i've always said AJ is a big slow muscle bound ko waiting to happen , I think the big difference in these two is
Aj -Training , he's at the institute of sport working with all the self appointed well paid experts , with rowing machines , strenght coach , weights , and all the scientific mumbo jumbo , building a body beutiful , that just gets slower by the month .
Ruiz -on the other hand is hitting the bag, speed ball , mitts and sparring , he's doing in training what boxers are supposed to do , throw punches with fast hands , good timing and intent . Old school rules ,,
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:52
by overhand_right
coneye wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 00:46
Heavy weight boxing the fat guy is not always unfit , Ruiz , proved he could go the distance he had /has fast hands , and is a good counter puncher , his distanceing with the footwork was excellent , and above all his mind set beat AJ , . For me i've always said AJ is a big slow muscle bound ko waiting to happen , I think the big difference in these two is
Aj -Training , he's at the institute of sport working with all the self appointed well paid experts , with rowing machines , strenght coach , weights , and all the scientific mumbo jumbo , building a body beutiful , that just gets slower by the month .
Ruiz -on the other hand is hitting the bag, speed ball , mitts and sparring , he's doing in training what boxers are supposed to do , throw punches with fast hands , good timing and intent . Old school rules ,,
Exactly. All the futuristic training in the cosmos can only do so much for you. Chin, heart and guts are going to be tested against a tough guy adept at the simple, effective, old fashioned fundamentals.
It was like watching King Kong get beaten up by Fatty Arbuckle.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:56
by bruthead
Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko and Wladimir Klitschko dominated the division for 15 years but let's change how we see things based on one huge upset?
Ever heard of Hasim Rahman?
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:58
by jamamb
ya, and of course just skips over all the shorter guys aj beat, including a guy who beat ruiz (and who was also taller then ruiz)
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:04
by gilgamesh
bruthead wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 00:56
Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko and Wladimir Klitschko dominated the division for 15 years but let's change how we see things based on one huge upset?
Ever heard of Hasim Rahman?
Height and Size are never not going to be an advantage, but they're never going to make you unbeatable either.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:05
by overhand_right
In pretty much all heavyweight fantasy fights, posters fixate on height and weight, rather than talent. This was a good example of talent trumping height and weight. That's the point I'm making.
I don't think beating the middling Carlos Takam, or the 40 year old Povetkin is skipping over anything. Joshua was obviously better than those chaps.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:07
by jamamb
i dont think andy ruiz is really that great either, he lost to joe parker (omg taller joe! omg joe who lost to taller aj and whyte! whyte who lost to taller aj too!) and couldnt stop a shot to sh!t liakhovich and was just droppin rounds to kingpin johnson.. it doesnt always work out that the guy who beats you is superior to all the guys you beat
obviously your quite giddy lol
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:10
by gilgamesh
jamamb wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 01:07
i dont think andy ruiz is really that great either, he lost to joe parker (omg taller joe! omg joe who lost to taller aj!) and couldnt stop a shot to sh!t liakhovich. it doesnt always work out that the guy who beats who is superior to some guys you beat
Ruiz most definitely isn't that great. I don't even know if he's better than any of us thought or if AJ was just worse, or if it were just a freak thing or AJ overlooked him, and just fought dumb. I don't know.
But I think it'd be a bigger upset even than Ruiz winning the title if he still has them 2 fights from now. I just can't see him holding onto the belts long, and all the big names will be chomping at the bit to get at him if Joshua doesn't want the rematch.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:12
by jamamb
aj already handily beat several guys better or about as good as ruiz, boxing is a funny sport and things like this happen. this case itself is 1 for the short guy among several for aj winning as taller guy and ruiz already having lost to a taller guy (who himself lost to aj, and also lost to whyte---another shorter victim of aj)
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:15
by tobyh5
jamamb wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 00:11
well if your gonna go all of one case, what about all those shorter guys aj beat
I don’t think the point is that short and fat is better but that it’s not about that, it’s about skills, heart, stamina etc, so stop judging on physique. The best man is the best man. He may be an Adonis or he may look like butterbean
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:17
by overhand_right
Fair enough, other people clearly understand my very clear point, I'm obviously not speaking in absolutes, but for some reason jamab thinks I am. Never mind.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 01:22
by jamamb
nope, dont at all, i just dont think this result is any 'bigger' or privledged in the height argument then all those several tiems more results of aj beating shorter flabbier guys, or ruiz losing to a taller opponent who in turn lost to the taller aj etc
i dont really think many ppl actually believe height and adonis build are the be all end all either, thats more like a lame tactic where you cherry pick the most extreme side of an argument and act like its the general view or way more common then it it is
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 02:28
by coneye
The height made no difference here , Ruiz had better footwork , he closed the range down easy , and was out of range when he needed to be
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 02:31
by ironbeard
overhand_right wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 00:13
Well I didn't think those guys were that talented. I rewatched Ruiz/Parker and thought bloody hell, nothing hurts this guy and he lands really sweet, weighty combos when Parker attacks!
I never watched Carlos Takam and thought, here's a threat. He's just a fit guy who tries. Ruiz has a vicious streak and is clearly gifted.
Indeed! Ruiz was nearly out cold hitting the canvas in the third. If you go back and watch it, he snaps out of it and you can see the menace. You can almost see the wheels turning in his brain, setting the bear trap. Every time he got hit he responded as if he got a little adrenaline rush. Yet, he is controlled.
Rewatching, another part of his game plan tonight that was VERY effective was his stiff jab to the body. AJ was feeling it.
If you go back six weeks and watch the Dimetrenko fight, you see the same thing you saw tonight; a menacing badger literally taking a larger animal apart. Both Dime and AJ have the same look of defeat before the stoppages.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 03:08
by samwbr
Shhhh wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 01:22
This is one of the most important boxing results and upsets ever
It really isnt.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 03:08
by tigermoth87
It depends.
AJ is huge, but he doesn't tske advsntage of his weight and heighy advantage the way Fury does and Klitschko did.
It's pointless being 5 inches bigger or whatever if you're not gonna use it.
I couldn't ever see a small fighter beating prime Wlad snd can't see a small fighter beating Fury.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 03:15
by ironbeard
samwbr wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 03:08
It really isnt.
It is a huge upset. People all over the world are going to be scrambling to see it this morning.
Fat boys be hurting their hands on bags.
Re: Can we stop exaggerating the importance of height & muscle now?
Posted: 02 Jun 2019, 03:16
by samwbr
ironbeard wrote: ↑02 Jun 2019, 03:15
It is a huge upset. People all over the world are going to be scrambling to see it this morning.
Fat boys be hurting their hands on bags.
It's an upset but it's not one of the most important results in history.