BoxRec

Hi All

I have checked my collection and I do not have this on tape. I checked my old boxing news for fight reports and again I couldn't find anything.
I do not have access to my old Ring/KO/Boxing Illustrated at the moment and I couldn't find anything on the Web.
The reason I am interested is that Butler claims that he decked McCall. Of course this would be a revelation as Oliver claims that he has never been decked.
I'm wondering whether it was a slip and Butler is trying to claim it was genuine.

Any help or links would be very much appreciated.

I've tried for years to find out about this fight but it seems to have passed undocumented. Funnily enough I was going to post this exact question, because I also read that recent interview with Lionel Butler, but you beat me to it!

I'll have a look through my old Boxing Illustrateds this afternoon but I doubt there's anything there. My feeling is the KD never happened, Butler being something of a liar and prone to self aggrandisement.

That's the impression I got ; when he won a fight he was in shape, when he lost he wasn't or was robbed!

Butler is full of kakkkkka

evrenb wrote: ↑11 Aug 2019, 16:14 That's the impression I got ; when he won a fight he was in shape, when he lost he wasn't or was robbed!

I’ll ask Oliver about this !! I got his number I sent a bunch of his fights to him on DVD about 2 yrs ago !!!! I’ll ask if butler dropped him —- I’ll get back to you

I was under the impression that the only one to really ring Oliver's bell was Bert Cooper.....in a sparring session.

Oliver McCall would have whipped Lionel Butler had they fought a rematch in 1990, or anytime thereafter. Oliver's win in the first fight should have been unanimous, and not an SD, based on what I have been told.

JohnReed wrote: ↑15 Aug 2019, 21:33 Oliver McCall would have wrecked Lionel Butler in 1990. McCall was on another level altogether compared to Butler. Yeah, it's a good fight, but I picture McCall pounding Butler in a stoppage defeat of some sort.

Oliver had incredible durability. He may rank up there with George Chuvalo in that respect. On top of that he could punch, and had a lot more ring intelligence than anyone gave him credit for.

You have the wrong end of the stick buddy. This isn't a fantasy fight, McCall and Butler actually did fight in 1990 and McCall won by split decision over 10. The post is about Butlers claim that he dropped McCall in that fight.

Given Butler's shaky start in boxing, going to a 10 rd SD with Oliver McCall in 1990 is very impressive. I think after this fight he began his long winning streak, the highlights being his flattening of Tubbs and Bonecrusher.

McCall lost his next fight, to Orlin Norris. I have that one on DVD somewhere, it's a very good fight. One of Orlin's many forgotten heavyweight wins.

badkatt wrote: ↑15 Aug 2019, 17:26

evrenb wrote: ↑11 Aug 2019, 16:14 That's the impression I got ; when he won a fight he was in shape, when he lost he wasn't or was robbed!

I’ll ask Oliver about this !! I got his number I sent a bunch of his fights to him on DVD about 2 yrs ago !!!! I’ll ask if butler dropped him —- I’ll get back to you

Excellent. Please ask him what he remembers of the Butler fight!

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 00:50

JohnReed wrote: ↑15 Aug 2019, 21:33 Oliver McCall would have wrecked Lionel Butler in 1990. McCall was on another level altogether compared to Butler. Yeah, it's a good fight, but I picture McCall pounding Butler in a stoppage defeat of some sort.

Oliver had incredible durability. He may rank up there with George Chuvalo in that respect. On top of that he could punch, and had a lot more ring intelligence than anyone gave him credit for.

You have the wrong end of the stick buddy. This isn't a fantasy fight, McCall and Butler actually did fight in 1990 and McCall won by split decision over 10. The post is about Butlers claim that he dropped McCall in that fight.

I knew that. I assumed you guys were addressing hypothetical issue of a rematch. Clearly I would have gone with Oliver.

JohnReed wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:33

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 00:50

You have the wrong end of the stick buddy. This isn't a fantasy fight, McCall and Butler actually did fight in 1990 and McCall won by split decision over 10. The post is about Butlers claim that he dropped McCall in that fight.

I knew that. I assumed you guys were addressing hypothetical issue of a rematch. Clearly I would have gone with Oliver.

Eh, you said McCall would have wrecked Butler in 1990, they fought in 1990 and he didn't wreck him then so why would he wreck him in a rematch in the same year?

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:36

JohnReed wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:33

I knew that. I assumed you guys were addressing hypothetical issue of a rematch. Clearly I would have gone with Oliver.

Eh, you said McCall would have wrecked Butler in 1990, they fought in 1990 and he didn't wreck him then so why would he wreck him in a rematch in the same year?

Oliver McCall was a certified bad@ass fighter. Big time power, granite chin, ring intelligence, overpowering strength. The whole package. Oliver's problem was that he underachieved in many fights, particularly at the beginning and later stages of his career.

My impression is that Oliver could have fought better than he did in against Butler. My impression is based on hearsay though.

JohnReed wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:41

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:36

Eh, you said McCall would have wrecked Butler in 1990, they fought in 1990 and he didn't wreck him then so why would he wreck him in a rematch in the same year?

Oliver McCall was a certified bad@ass fighter. Big time power, granite chin, ring intelligence, overpowering strength. The whole package. Oliver's problem was that he underachieved in many fights, particularly at the beginning and later stages of his career.

My impression is that Oliver could have fought better than he did in against Butler. My impression is based on hearsay though.

Well we can only go by how the actual fight panned out and it was a split decision. Your original post makes no sense as you said he would have wrecked Butler in 1990 when that clearly never happened. Could he have done better, maybe, but you could say that about any fighter when they struggle to win.

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:50

JohnReed wrote: ↑16 Aug 2019, 15:41

Oliver McCall was a certified bad@ass fighter. Big time power, granite chin, ring intelligence, overpowering strength. The whole package. Oliver's problem was that he underachieved in many fights, particularly at the beginning and later stages of his career.

My impression is that Oliver could have fought better than he did in against Butler. My impression is based on hearsay though.

Well we can only go by how the actual fight panned out and it was a split decision. Your original post makes no sense as you said he would have wrecked Butler in 1990 when that clearly never happened. Could he have done better, maybe, but you could say that about any fighter when they struggle to win.

I know someone who worked a lot with McCall in the past. I'll ask him to give me some insight into this fight.

Also, I disagree with your reasoning. That's because any time two guys fight, it's possible that one of them fights far beneath his peak ability level, while the other one puts on his very best performance. If you consider that an "A" level fighter like McCall could have underachieved on this night, and that a "B+" fighter like Butler might have fought his very best (or even peaked out, ability-wise), then it makes sense to say that the rematch could turn out to be hugely different as compared to the first bout.

Case in point: in the spring of 1976, world-rated rated Bobby Cassidy (a winner in 51 out of 68 pro fights, many of them against top opposition) put on a sluggish performance against unheralded Ramon Ranquello (record of 3-3-2). The fight ended with Cassidy TKO'd in round ten. But did that fight tell use anything about how the rematch would go? Nope... because the first fight was an anomaly in how it turned out. Sure enough, several months later, the pair fought a rematch and Cassidy whipped Ranquello, boxing his ears off and winning an easy ten round decision.

Get my point? I say that McCall -- who was notorious for having off nights -- probably under performed against Butler, who was not really in Oliver's class. It's possible that Butler fought unusually well on this evening. Therefore, starting with this reasoning, I put myself out on a limb and hypothesized that McCall would have won any rematch in a big way.

The only reference to this fight in Boxing Illustrated is the single line "Oliver McCall Ws10 Lionel Butler", with the date and location. I scanned the ringside reports through several issues around the time period as the release of reports was surprisingly erratic, but nothing.

overhand_right wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 16:11 The only reference to this fight in Boxing Illustrated is the single line "Oliver McCall Ws10 Lionel Butler", with the date and location. I scanned the ringside reports through several issues around the time period as the release of reports was surprisingly erratic, but nothing.

Thanks for looking at this for me....i had the same issue with the boxing news. I'll see if there are perhaps local newspaper reports..its not like it was 50 years ago ....

evrenb wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 04:41

overhand_right wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 16:11 The only reference to this fight in Boxing Illustrated is the single line "Oliver McCall Ws10 Lionel Butler", with the date and location. I scanned the ringside reports through several issues around the time period as the release of reports was surprisingly erratic, but nothing.

Thanks for looking at this for me....i had the same issue with the boxing news. I'll see if there are perhaps local newspaper reports..its not like it was 50 years ago ....

The issue is the fight only became interesting because of Butler's improbable subsequent career turnaround. I know it was McCall who became champ but no one's researching McCall vs Joe Blow, it's Butler who makes it so intriguing. But it was an obscure card in Oklahoma featuring all no names except McCall, and he at the time was basically just a Tyson undercard fighter, against a 5-5 pug. BI didn't even bother to send intrepid Jack Obemeyer to report on it, and he went everywhere! I do have a few profiles on Butler from his 90s pomp, I'll see whether they share any details about it. But I was so interested in McCall and Butler in that period that I doubt I would have forgotten it.

Fingers crossed there was a local reporter there, or that McCall can provide some details.

Boys, boys....

Never forget the local newspapers

Oklahoman wrote this about the fight next day :

Oliver McCall of Chicago scored a 10-round split decision victory over Lionel Butler of New Orleans in the first round of the Fan World Heavyweight Invitational Tournament on Monday night at Central Plaza Ballroom.

McCall was the aggressor early, working his left jab enough to inflict swelling under Butler's right eye by the fourth round.

Soon after that Butler came to life and began backing McCall to the ropes and using his strong left hooks. In the seventh round, Butler landed three consecutive left hooks to shake up McCall, but Butler soon tired.

Two judges favored McCall 98-97 and 97-95. The third judge scored it 100-97 for Butler.

Petu v.d. Pajm wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 06:57 Boys, boys....

Never forget the local newspapers

Oklahoman wrote this about the fight next day :

Oliver McCall of Chicago scored a 10-round split decision victory over Lionel Butler of New Orleans in the first round of the Fan World Heavyweight Invitational Tournament on Monday night at Central Plaza Ballroom.

McCall was the aggressor early, working his left jab enough to inflict swelling under Butler's right eye by the fourth round.

Soon after that Butler came to life and began backing McCall to the ropes and using his strong left hooks. In the seventh round, Butler landed three consecutive left hooks to shake up McCall, but Butler soon tired.

Two judges favored McCall 98-97 and 97-95. The third judge scored it 100-97 for Butler.

Sir, I am indebted to you!

Boxrec should add this to the bout's wiki.

Fascinating to at last read a report, however brief. I think this categorically refutes Butler's KD claim, but still, to "shake up" McCall takes some doing. Very interesting.

Petu v.d. Pajm wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 06:57 Two judges favored McCall 98-97 and 97-95. The third judge scored it 100-97 for Butler.[/i]

Weird cards. Seven rounds even and three to Butler on one card, nothing to McCall. I wonder if a fighter has ever had his hand raised while there was one judge who didn't see him winning a single, solitary round!?

I've seen it a few times. A few years back Christain Mijares won by split decision over Jose Navarro, where everyone thought Mijares clearly won, except for one judge who had him losing 120-108!

Vivian Harris also beat Danny O Connor by split decision, winning by scores of 99-91/96-94, then down on the other card 100-90.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 08:53 I've seen it a few times. A few years back Christain Mijares won by split decision over Jose Navarro, where everyone thought Mijares clearly won, except for one judge who had him losing 120-108!

Vivian Harris also beat Danny O Connor by split decision, winning by scores of 99-91/96-94, then down on the other card 100-90.

Bloody hell!

overhand_right wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 08:46 Weird cards. Seven rounds even and three to Butler on one card, nothing to McCall. I wonder if a fighter has ever had his hand raised while there was one judge who didn't see him winning a single, solitary round!?

One of the Kenny Keene vs. Bobby Crabtree fights came close. Two judges scoring it for Crabtree 116-115 & 120-108, while the 3rd judge had Keene winning 119-111.

wouter wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 09:15

overhand_right wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 08:46 Weird cards. Seven rounds even and three to Butler on one card, nothing to McCall. I wonder if a fighter has ever had his hand raised while there was one judge who didn't see him winning a single, solitary round!?

One of the Kenny Keene vs. Bobby Crabtree fights came close. Two judges scoring it for Crabtree 116-115 & 120-108, while the 3rd judge had Keene winning 119-111.

Boggles the mind. Someone there is surely very, very wrong.