Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 08:30
Who was the best of the four? Three of them beat Muhammad Ali. One didn't.
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Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
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Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 09:40
If there was no Ali, Frazier would be likely to have a similar run until Foreman. Then Big George logically would keep the title, but until what moment? How far could Foreman's defences go? He could do Frazier rematch in 1975 or so and Frazier could be much better prepared taking into consideration the fact, how good and motivated he was in Manila. But if Foreman would win Frazier and Norton in rematches, he still probably would lose to Young. He would lose to Holmes, if he would be able to reign longer. Also it's important to note, that Frazier's and especially Norton's greatness depend a lot on winning Ali, Norton wasn't even a top fighter before winning Ali. And Holmes' greatness depends more on the close to the record reign, while his win over shot Ali wasn't really valuable. And if Foreman didn't retire and Holmes met him, Larry's career would look even greater with that win. But Foreman still could be conquered earlier, maybe even by Frazier. So, it's tough to judge.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 10:12
I agree with everything you said except Frazier possibly beating Foreman.DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Nov 2019, 09:40 If there was no Ali, Frazier would be likely to have a similar run until Foreman. Then Big George logically would keep the title, but until what moment? How far could Foreman's defences go? He could do Frazier rematch in 1975 or so and Frazier could be much better prepared taking into consideration the fact, how good and motivated he was in Manila. But if Foreman would win Frazier and Norton in rematches, he still probably would lose to Young. He would lose to Holmes, if he would be able to reign longer. Also it's important to note, that Frazier's and especially Norton's greatness depend a lot on winning Ali, Norton wasn't even a top fighter before winning Ali. And Holmes' greatness depends more on the close to the record reign, while his win over shot Ali wasn't really valuable. And if Foreman didn't retire and Holmes met him, Larry's career would look even greater with that win. But Foreman still could be conquered earlier, maybe even by Frazier. So, it's tough to judge.
It's just a bad style match up for Frazier and on top of that Fraziers style did not lead to a long career. No way he would beat Foreman as he got older
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 10:27
It would still be Holmes
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 16 Nov 2019, 12:06
Joe Bugner would have beaten Foreman.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 20 Nov 2019, 08:10
I see the logic ..but it wouldn't happen.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 20 Nov 2019, 18:29
Bugner is such an overrated fighter on these forums. His best win is either a pts win over near retirement jimmy ellis, a last fight henry cooper or chuck wepner. Every time he fought a top guy, he lost...frazier, ali, shavers, Lyle. He also lost to marvis frazier and stefan tangsted. Theres no way he beats foreman. no way at all.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 20 Nov 2019, 18:40
I agreecfang wrote: ↑20 Nov 2019, 18:29 Bugner is such an overrated fighter on these forums. His best win is either a pts win over near retirement jimmy ellis, a last fight henry cooper or chuck wepner. Every time he fought a top guy, he lost...frazier, ali, shavers, Lyle. He also lost to marvis frazier and stefan tangsted. Theres no way he beats foreman. no way at all.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 25 Nov 2019, 19:05
Holmes I figure
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 26 Nov 2019, 11:47
As for Bugner, you can spin it anyway that you want.
It's not fair to count the losses to Tangsted and Frazier but then say his wins over Cooper and Ellis don't count because Ellis and Cooper were past it.
You could argue that wins over Mac Foster and later in his career against Greg Page were "big wins".
He should have beat Middleton. Counting that loss against him is fair.
However, how much are going to fault him for losing to Ali and Frazier? It's not like he got crushed in these fights.
If you watch the Ron Lyle fight, he fought pretty well, just came up a little short against a very good fighter.
Bugner was obviously not a legend. But he was a very good fighter. If he fought to his capability, he could have given Foreman a lot of trouble.
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It's not fair to count the losses to Tangsted and Frazier but then say his wins over Cooper and Ellis don't count because Ellis and Cooper were past it.
You could argue that wins over Mac Foster and later in his career against Greg Page were "big wins".
He should have beat Middleton. Counting that loss against him is fair.
However, how much are going to fault him for losing to Ali and Frazier? It's not like he got crushed in these fights.
If you watch the Ron Lyle fight, he fought pretty well, just came up a little short against a very good fighter.
Bugner was obviously not a legend. But he was a very good fighter. If he fought to his capability, he could have given Foreman a lot of trouble.
.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 27 Nov 2019, 13:21
I selected Holmes, but labored between he and Foreman.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 27 Nov 2019, 16:36
I have Foreman a hair better than Frazier, and Frazier a hair better than Holmes. Norton was obviously fourth, but the gap is not as great as is often made out to be nowadays.
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 27 Nov 2019, 16:47
Come on man, go for full boxing hipster and tell me that Norton was better than one of them
Re: Without the Great Muhammad Ali in the Scene, Who was the Best Heavyweight of These Four Hall of Famers?
Posted: 27 Nov 2019, 16:55
I won't go that far! 
However, take a look at Norton and Frazier's common opponents. Their results are almost identical. Gave Holmes all that he could handle. Norton is underrated these days.
However, take a look at Norton and Frazier's common opponents. Their results are almost identical. Gave Holmes all that he could handle. Norton is underrated these days.