BoxRec

Arguing this with someone else. Help a bruhther out for a moment. Have I got this about right?

Wilder

1. Ortiz
2. Stiverne
3. Breazeale
4. Duhaupas
5. Scott

AJ

1. Wlad
2. Whyte
3. Povetkin
4. Parker
5. Takam

Fury

1. Wlad
2. Chisora
3. Cunningham
4. Hammer
5. Wallin


Ruiz's resume is too sh!tty after AJ to really argue anything

Kinda tough on Wilder as he fought Ortiz twice. That would squeeze out Breazeale. I like your lists. but I can't get McDermit out of my mind vs Fury. Not in the top three best fighters he fought, but put up one great effort that fight yes?

I'd have Parker over Pov as Pov was well past it when he fought AJ and Parker (at the time) would've beaten him. Not sure Wlad at 104 y/o would be my number one but certainly on the list of three.

EDIT: SHVT! NO sooner than i post, the OP changed. Never mind.

The first one was too restrictive probably. And it's opponent, not wins. You can beat the same guy 6 times but that's 1 guy.

oogiebe wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:31 Kinda tough on Wilder as he fought Ortiz twice. That would squeeze out Breazeale. I like your lists. but I can't get McDermit out of my mind vs Fury. Not in the top three best fighters he fought, but put up one great effort that fight yes?

I'd have Parker over Pov as Pov was well past it when he fought AJ and Parker (at the time) would've beaten him. Not sure Wlad at 104 y/o would be my number one but certainly on the list of three.

EDIT: SHVT! NO sooner than i post, the OP changed. Never mind.

Pov was still a decent fighter IMO. He is younger than Ortiz and you still rated Wilder beating Ort well didn't you? I would take Pov over many younger opponents

Similar with Wlad. Ya, he was in his 40s, but looking at what he brought, would you really take younger guys like Joe over him?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:33 The first one was too restrictive probably. And it's opponent, not wins. You can beat the same guy 6 times but that's 1 guy.

Yeah, it is clearer going to five.

I have to think about the Wilder list. Something just doesn't seem quite right. I think you nailed AJ. Fury gets swishy after three.

oogiebe wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:31 Kinda tough on Wilder as he fought Ortiz twice. That would squeeze out Breazeale. I like your lists. but I can't get McDermit out of my mind vs Fury. Not in the top three best fighters he fought, but put up one great effort that fight yes?

I'd have Parker over Pov as Pov was well past it when he fought AJ and Parker (at the time) would've beaten him. Not sure Wlad at 104 y/o would be my number one but certainly on the list of three.

EDIT: SHVT! NO sooner than i post, the OP changed. Never mind.

Breazeale is still probably one of Wilder's best wins even if you include both Stiverne wins, and both Ortiz wins. The Malik Scott win didn't amount to much because it looked like Scott just fell down out of fear.

Wilder has plenty of highlight reel KO's that outdo the Malik Scott win.

Liakhovich, Szpilka, Arreola...any of those guys are better than the Malik Scott win.

AJ definitely has the best resume of the 3 still.

Fury has the weakest. Though he arguably has the single biggest win given the time of WHEN he beat Wlad.

Can't really argue with your list Marge. Really shows AJ's superior resume, btw.

Call me crazy, but just like I think Chuck Martin is underrated, I think Scott is a bit too. He gave some good fighters trouble and made Ortiz look pretty buffoonish at times.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:39 Call me crazy, but just like I think Chuck Martin is underrated, I think Scott is a bit too. He gave some good fighters trouble and made Ortiz look pretty buffoonish at times.

Tough call on Martin. I know I always bash him, but comparatively speaking, is he really that bad?

He's about as good as Kownacki, just slightly slightly not quite as good. I know that's not exactly an amazing level of fighter, but I think Martin can be a legit top 15 in this division. He also won a major national amateur title and was runner up in national golden gloves. I mean he's not just some total sh!Te bag

And Scott, for him it's like people only remember that Wilder beat him with that phantom-ish punch

Would love to hear more details about your argument that this was borne out of.

It was born out of a very different order of lists lol, though tbh he's kinda one of these casuals so he doesn't really make me question my lists much, I just want to show that I'm right

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:48 It was born out of a very different order of lists lol, though tbh he's kinda one of these casuals so he doesn't really make me question my lists much, I just want to show that I'm right

Got it.

Surely you've got to count Ortiz twice for Wilder to be fair?

Top 5 opponents is a very different list than top 5 wins which conveniently ignores the Wilder v Fury draw.

ewenhay wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:49 Surely you've got to count Ortiz twice for Wilder to be fair?

Top 5 opponents is a very different list than top 5 wins which conveniently ignores the Wilder v Fury draw.

It's opponents. Opponents are people.

I agree

But the dice have been loaded

Loaded for what? It is an argument specifically about opponents. Obviously something like Ortiz 1 and 2 both count above something like Szpilka, that's not the issue...

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:52 Loaded for what? It is an argument specifically about opponents. Obviously something like Ortiz 1 and 2 both count above something like Szpilka, that's not the issue...

I know.

Just making an tangential observation

If it were "FIGHTS" and not "opponents" then you count Ortiz twice for Wilder and Chis twice for Fury.

Yeah. Fights change the dynamics, particularly for Wilder

ewenhay wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 17:07 Yeah. Fights change the dynamics, particularly for Wilder

Also add Wilder for Fury and Fury for Wilder and they are more competetive resumes with AJ and they have the better opponent in each other.

oogiebe wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 17:09

ewenhay wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 17:07 Yeah. Fights change the dynamics, particularly for Wilder

Also add Wilder for Fury and Fury for Wilder and they are more competetive resumes with AJ and they have the better opponent in each other.

Yep

That's the point I was trying to make though I do accept that I wasn't on topic

Hey, do what you want to even it up if that's your goal

oogiebe wrote: ↑29 Nov 2019, 16:31 Kinda tough on Wilder as he fought Ortiz twice. That would squeeze out Breazeale. I like your lists. but I can't get McDermit out of my mind vs Fury. Not in the top three best fighters he fought, but put up one great effort that fight yes?

I'd have Parker over Pov as Pov was well past it when he fought AJ and Parker (at the time) would've beaten him. Not sure Wlad at 104 y/o would be my number one but certainly on the list of three.

EDIT: SHVT! NO sooner than i post, the OP changed. Never mind.

Wlad was pretty much the same age vs AJ as Ortiz was for Wilder 2 wasn't he? I think the difference was just a few months. You can still be a good fighter at that age like Wlad and Luis, and I don't think it's too damaging on the achievement if we are being consistent, similarly I don't really see Povetkin as having being too far done. He's actually younger than Orty btw, who I mention because you seem still to really rate that win in the rematch. Reminds me of a Ewey classic, btw something like :

'Pov was 40 and therefore shot. Ortiz would be a good fight though'

Tyson Fury’s “victories” over Wilder and Klitschko means that he has the best wins.

In case anyone is interested, here’s an evaluation of The RING ratings of Wilder & Joshua’s opponents at the time they faced them:

Anthony Joshua:

• Dillian Whyte (unranked & unbeaten – he is currently ranked 5th though)
• Charles Martin (10th, the IBF champ & also unbeaten)
• Dominic Breazeale (unranked and unbeaten, but was very recently rated 7th though)
• Eric Molina (unranked)
• Wladimir Klitschko (2nd, a future Hall-of-Famer & only tasted defeat once in the 13 years prior)
• Carlos Takam (unranked, but was the IBF's mandatory & a late substitute opponent for Kubrat Pulev, who was ranked 4th at the time)
• Joseph Parker (3rd, the WBO champ & also unbeaten)
• Alexander Povetkin (3rd, the WBA's mandatory challenger, hadn't tasted defeat for five years, with his sole loss in a career spanning 13½ years coming against a dead-cert first-ballot Hall-of-Famer)
• Andy Ruiz Jr. (unranked, but is currently rated 3rd after his shock victory over AJ)

Deontay Wilder:

• Bermane Stiverne I (3rd - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Eric Molina (unranked - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Johann Duhaupas (unranked & tasted defeat two fights prior)
• Artur Szpilka (unranked - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Chris Arreola (unranked & only won two of his previous six outings - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Gerald Washington (unranked - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Bermane Stiverne II (7th & had struggled to defeat a journeyman in his only outing since his first defeat to Wilder - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Luis Ortiz I (5th - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Tyson Fury (10th, but was elevated to becoming the current number one fighter, due to The RING's perception of the Brit beating Wilder)
• Dominic Breazeale (7th, but had already been stopped by Anthony Joshua earlier in his career - an Al Haymon fighter)
• Luis Ortiz II (6th - an Al Haymon fighter)