BoxRec

Why is he the best ever to you? Could we overrate his standing?

He isn't to me. Greb or Langford.

Can we find some loopholes in Walker Smith's boxing career?

For starters, he never fought the top black dangerous contenders like the greats Holman Williams, Charlie Burley, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Eddie Booker, Jimmy Bivins, etc, etc, etc. He fought the top white contenders, though.

Winning the Middleweight crown 5 times is kind of overrated, isn't it?

Third, he never went up to light-heavyweight again after he lost to Joey Maxim. But, some other fighters like the great Carlos Monzon and Marvelous Marvin Hagler get criticized for not jumping to 175lbs.

Fourth, I don't buy the notion that he was the MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER EVER. I see on film that he had lots of loopholes in his boxing skills. One of them is that he was not a great inside fighter. He's inside game was crap compared to other greats. I can name 10 fighters that were MORE COMPLETE than he was.

What is the thing with him as the best ever?

Love to hear the 10 that were all around better than Robinson... impossible

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Dec 2019, 12:58 Why is he the best ever to you? Could we overrate his standing?

It’s boxing Law (or lore) so we can shake our heads disapprovingly at casuals declaring Floyd TBE and then we regale them of tales we’ve read about Walker Smith jnr!

Duran1970 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2019, 18:52 Love to hear the 10 that were all around better than Robinson... impossible

That's not impossible.

For starters, in his own era, the greats Ezzard Charles and Charley Burley were more complete.

Other boxers that I can name that were much more complete than the original Sugar Ray:

Eder Jofre
Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
Eusebio Pedroza
Marvelous
Sugar Ray Leonard
Mike McCallum
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins

These ten, can do it all. They were all around fighters and could fight inside, which is A LOST ART in today's boxing world.

James toney? With his quicksand feet?

why would he be the greatest?
- he went 132-3-2 before his first retirement
- he was never knocked out (retired once due to heat exhaustion)
- he beat the lightweight champion in a non title bout
- he was undefeated at welterweight
- he beat lamotta 5/6 at middleweight
- 5x middleweight champion
- a unique combination of power, speed, & grace
- 1 punch ko power in either hand
- developed the dancing style, copied by ali
- shined out amongst his contemporaries such that they invented the term p4p

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 00:03 James toney? With his quicksand feet?

Toney could box.

fanman wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 00:24 why would he be the greatest?
- he went 132-3-2 before his first retirement
- he was never knocked out (retired once due to heat exhaustion)
- he beat the lightweight champion in a non title bout
- he was undefeated at welterweight
- he beat lamotta 5/6 at middleweight
- 5x middleweight champion
- a unique combination of power, speed, & grace
- 1 punch ko power in either hand
- developed the dancing style, copied by ali
- shined out amongst his contemporaries such that they invented the term p4p

Undefeated at Welterweight. Probably because he missed on Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams and Charley Burley?

Power, skill and grace, but, can't fight inside?

Beat the great Jake LaMotta 5 out of 6? What happened to him fighting the great Ezzard Charles at least twice?

Anybody can have a 131-1-1 record fighting the majority white fighters that can't fight.

You see the point?

The point being that you are not very bright? Of all people, you are criticizing Ray Robinson's competition? .

Cocoa Kid and Robinson were only ranked in the same weight class for two years, early in Robinson's career. Holman Williams and Burley were only ranked in the same weight class for a bout a year. It's not surprising at all that they didn't fight.
Ezzard Charles? When and what weight class was that supposed e happened? You are being ridiculous.

btw, Some of the best fighters were white. And Robinson beat black opponents too.

If you are going to say someone else is better, use valid reasons.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 11:41 The point being that you are not very bright? Of all people, you are criticizing Ray Robinson's competition? .

Cocoa Kid and Robinson were only ranked in the same weight class for two years, early in Robinson's career. Holman Williams and Burley were only ranked in the same weight class for a bout a year. It's not surprising at all that they didn't fight.
Ezzard Charles? When and what weight class was that supposed e happened? You are being ridiculous.

btw, Some of the best fighters were white. And Robinson beat black opponents too.

If you are going to say someone else is better, use valid reasons.

I said valued reasons. Just because it doesn't fit your thinking it doesn't mean that is not valid.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 11:31

fanman wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 00:24 why would he be the greatest?
- he went 132-3-2 before his first retirement
- he was never knocked out (retired once due to heat exhaustion)
- he beat the lightweight champion in a non title bout
- he was undefeated at welterweight
- he beat lamotta 5/6 at middleweight
- 5x middleweight champion
- a unique combination of power, speed, & grace
- 1 punch ko power in either hand
- developed the dancing style, copied by ali
- shined out amongst his contemporaries such that they invented the term p4p

Undefeated at Welterweight. Probably because he missed on Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams and Charley Burley?

Power, skill and grace, but, can't fight inside?

Beat the great Jake LaMotta 5 out of 6? What happened to him fighting the great Ezzard Charles at least twice?

Anybody can have a 131-1-1 record fighting the majority white fighters that can't fight.

You see the point?

Zivic, Angott, Abrams, Servo, Shapiro (to name but a few) couldn't fight?

When I think of SRR, I think of how complete a fighter he was.

He could box, but
He had power in both hands

He could move
He had ring savvy
He had the ring IQ to adjust
He had endurance
His chin was great
He could box you or go to war

As for fighting on the inside, I can't really say as I haven't watched a ton of his fights. So, take my opinion for what it's worth.

But, if you are asking why he ranks P4P number one so often? I think it's the sterling record (pre-retirement) and his utter completeness as a fighter.

Though, as onetimeonly pointed out, true boxing historians aren't always so quick to just put him on top of the list. The notion that there could be a consensus number one out of the thousands of great fighters there have been is frankly a joke.

Robinson had a great left hook. He was inside when he threw it. elmer has Pedroza as more complete but barely has him ranked in his own 100.
So being "complete" really doesn't matter anyway when picking someone as number 1 all time.

I won't say that he's DEFINITELY the GOAT, but I can certainly see arguments which would place him there. He was stopped only once in 200 pro fights and most of his losses came well into old age. He defeated a seemingly endless list of hall of fame fighters. He was a multiple time and multiple division world champion. He could box, punch, go the distance, whatever he needed to do. Again, I'm not sold on the definitive idea that he's undisputed #1, but I have no real problem with anyone who rates him as such.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 16:43 Robinson had a great left hook. He was inside when he threw it. elmer has Pedroza as more complete but barely has him ranked in his own 100.
So being "complete" really doesn't matter anyway when picking someone as number 1 all time.

Robinson could not fight inside.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 14:31

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 11:31

Undefeated at Welterweight. Probably because he missed on Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams and Charley Burley?

Power, skill and grace, but, can't fight inside?

Beat the great Jake LaMotta 5 out of 6? What happened to him fighting the great Ezzard Charles at least twice?

Anybody can have a 131-1-1 record fighting the majority white fighters that can't fight.

You see the point?

Zivic, Angott, Abrams, Servo, Shapiro (to name but a few) couldn't fight?

He was outright favorite against them bums. Cocoa Kid was there.
Holman Williams was there.
Charley Burley was there.
So, Archie Moore.

As a matter of fact, only Fritzie Zivic fought Burley.

I've watched a good bit of Robinson footage, and yeah he could fight on the inside. Don't know where that sh*t is coming from. He might not have been the very best inside fighter of all time, but he certainly could handle himself in a slugfest if need be, and often did.

He's probably #3 or 4 P4P all time to me. Not #1, but the Top 5 all time guys all have such stellar accomplishments that they're all absolute goddamn legends among fighting men so you're just splitting hairs.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 11:31 Anybody can have a 131-1-1 record fighting the majority white fighters that can't fight.

I've stuck up for you before but I'm beginning to see why everyone dislikes you. This statement of yours is moronic and indefensible. It's actually one of the stupidest opinions I've ever read on a boxing forum, and that is some achievement.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 17:54

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 14:31
Zivic, Angott, Abrams, Servo, Shapiro (to name but a few) couldn't fight?

He was outright favorite against them bums. Cocoa Kid was there.
Holman Williams was there.
Charley Burley was there.
So, Archie Moore.

As a matter of fact, only Fritzie Zivic fought Burley.

Abrams fought Burley too.

Angott is undeniably great in just about anyone’s book.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 18:42

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 11:31 Anybody can have a 131-1-1 record fighting the majority white fighters that can't fight.

I've stuck up for you before but I'm beginning to see why everyone dislikes you. This statement of yours is moronic and indefensible. It's actually one of the stupidest opinions I've ever read on a boxing forum, and that is some achievement.

Moronic my ass. If you don't like what I said don't read my posts. Lots of fighters can't fight, not only white guys. Did I said that white guys can't fight?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 17:56 I've watched a good bit of Robinson footage, and yeah he could fight on the inside. Don't know where that sh*t is coming from. He might not have been the very best inside fighter of all time, but he certainly could handle himself in a slugfest if need be, and often did.

He's probably #3 or 4 P4P all time to me. Not #1, but the Top 5 all time guys all have such stellar accomplishments that they're all absolute goddamn legends among fighting men so you're just splitting hairs.

He ties the opponent everytime he fights inside. I have never seen Robinson fight inside. What fight did you see him fight inside? Let's get to the point.

You're just trolling now. If 131-1 is no big deal what happened to your #1 Armstrong?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 23:26

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Dec 2019, 17:56 I've watched a good bit of Robinson footage, and yeah he could fight on the inside. Don't know where that sh*t is coming from. He might not have been the very best inside fighter of all time, but he certainly could handle himself in a slugfest if need be, and often did.

He's probably #3 or 4 P4P all time to me. Not #1, but the Top 5 all time guys all have such stellar accomplishments that they're all absolute goddamn legends among fighting men so you're just splitting hairs.

He ties the opponent everytime he fights inside. I have never seen Robinson fight inside. What fight did you see him fight inside? Let's get to the point.

Lamotta, Basilio, Fullmer...I'm sure there are others. Hell he stopped Lamotta battering him on the inside for that matter.

If you think he's not the best boxer that ever lived. That's a fair enough point, and an argument can certainly be made there. If you think he had no inside fighting skills whatsoever. Well...I've just proven you wrong.