Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 14 Jan 2020, 11:21
Prime vs Prime.Who wins?
BoxRec
Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Page 1 of 3
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 14 Jan 2020, 20:36
Ali, 1964-1967 wins by decision. 1970's Ali loses.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 15 Jan 2020, 12:43
Ali of the 1960s win by unanimous decision in 15 rounds. Ali from 1971-75 win by split decision, but Bowe beats the 1978 version of Ali by decision.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 15 Jan 2020, 12:52
Bowe could handle Ali. Prime Bowe was superb. He handled prime Holyfied confidently. Ali would have to stay away. He would eat hard shots at mid and close range, while rope-a-dope would be a suicide.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 04 Apr 2020, 14:18
Ali by UD.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 15 Apr 2020, 10:26
In their Primes, Ali wins a unanimous decision. 1967 Ali is too fast for Bowe, in my opinion.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 01:49
Young Ali is too sharp and fast but would need to be concentrating fully on the job for the entire fight. 1970's rope-a-dope Ali would be carried out of the ring and rushed to the nearest hospital by paramedics. You cannot pull off that strategy with a monster like Bowe. Bowe was far more skilled than Foreman.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 04:24
Bowe was faster, more skilled and advanced, than anyone Ali had faced, except Holmes. Furthermore, Ali never faced anyone of such size with the comparable characteristics.TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 01:49 Young Ali is too sharp and fast but would need to be concentrating fully on the job for the entire fight. 1970's rope-a-dope Ali would be carried out of the ring and rushed to the nearest hospital by paramedics. You cannot pull off that strategy with a monster like Bowe. Bowe was far more skilled than Foreman.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 13:39
Bowe would let his hands go too. I could see Lewis being tentative and too wary of counters to fully take advantage of Ali rope a doping. He was pawing at Holyfield a lot because he was worried about being countered. Ali was faster handed than Holyfield even at that point. He was giving Foreman some clean counters to the chin during the fight. Bowe wouldn't need a second invitation to come inside though and would rip Ali up with brutal punches to head and body which, due to Ali's chin, would be painful to watch.DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 04:24Bowe was faster, more skilled and advanced, than anyone Ali had faced, except Holmes. Furthermore, Ali never faced anyone of such size with the comparable characteristics.TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 01:49 Young Ali is too sharp and fast but would need to be concentrating fully on the job for the entire fight. 1970's rope-a-dope Ali would be carried out of the ring and rushed to the nearest hospital by paramedics. You cannot pull off that strategy with a monster like Bowe. Bowe was far more skilled than Foreman.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 14:57
Some funny stuff so far.
So far, I think my favorite part is that Bowe was faster than anyone Ali ever fought besides Holmes.
So far, I think my favorite part is that Bowe was faster than anyone Ali ever fought besides Holmes.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 15:32
Sorry, I forgot, that Ali fought Sweat Pea Williams, so he's also there.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 14:57 Some funny stuff so far.
So far, I think my favorite part is that Bowe was faster than anyone Ali ever fought besides Holmes.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 23:34
I think that the great Muhammad Ali from 1965-67 era would be the best bet to beat a guy as big and talented as Riddick Bowe.
I think that Ali's speed and movement would frustrate Bowe for a major part of the fight. There would be no knockouts. The Greatest by decision.
IF it's the ALI of the early 70s, circa 1970-74, Bowe got a better chance to win. ALI wasn't as mobile and fought more flatfooted.
I think that Ali's speed and movement would frustrate Bowe for a major part of the fight. There would be no knockouts. The Greatest by decision.
IF it's the ALI of the early 70s, circa 1970-74, Bowe got a better chance to win. ALI wasn't as mobile and fought more flatfooted.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 09:07
He barely scraped by a faded Tony Tubbs. No doubt a prime Ali is better than Tubbs. He was also very easy to hit.DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 04:24Bowe was faster, more skilled and advanced, than anyone Ali had faced, except Holmes. Furthermore, Ali never faced anyone of such size with the comparable characteristics.TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑22 Apr 2020, 01:49 Young Ali is too sharp and fast but would need to be concentrating fully on the job for the entire fight. 1970's rope-a-dope Ali would be carried out of the ring and rushed to the nearest hospital by paramedics. You cannot pull off that strategy with a monster like Bowe. Bowe was far more skilled than Foreman.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 09:21
He beat Tubbs handily enough. Ali struggled with the likes of Chuvalo and Mildenberger. And so what? Are they anyhow better than Bowe? And Bowe won not only faded Tubbs, but also prime Holyfield, if you didn't notice. Did Ali have a better win?Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 09:07He barely scraped by a faded Tony Tubbs. No doubt a prime Ali is better than Tubbs. He was also very easy to hit.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 09:38
Ali didn't struggle with Mildenberger and Chuvalo. He won both of those fights very convincingly.
Still can't get over you saying Bowe was faster than all of Ali's opponents except for Holmes.
Seriously?
Patterson was much faster than Bowe. So was Doug Jones,Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young etc.
And a prime Ali was much faster than any of them.
Did Ali have a better win than Holyfield ? Great win for Bowe, but the answer is yes.
Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Don't know anyone who has Bowe in their top 10.
Still can't get over you saying Bowe was faster than all of Ali's opponents except for Holmes.
Seriously?
Patterson was much faster than Bowe. So was Doug Jones,Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young etc.
And a prime Ali was much faster than any of them.
Did Ali have a better win than Holyfield ? Great win for Bowe, but the answer is yes.
Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Don't know anyone who has Bowe in their top 10.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 10:21
He had comparably more convincing performances. Those two definitely won't be among the examples of Ali's finest performances.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 09:38 Ali didn't struggle with Mildenberger and Chuvalo. He won both of those fights very convincingly.
Patterson was past it, when he faced Ali. The others didn't have such fast and stiff jab, that Bowe had. The likes of Ellis and Young weren't even econimical enough to be compared with Bowe in combinational work, while Bowe could put punches together quite quickly. And Doug Jones, who, btw, gave Ali totall hell, can't be compared with Bowe at all.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 09:38 Still can't get over you saying Bowe was faster than all of Ali's opponents except for Holmes.
Seriously?
Patterson was much faster than Bowe. So was Doug Jones,Jimmy Ellis, Jimmy Young etc.
And a prime Ali was much faster than any of them.
So what Ali's win is better, than Bowe's over Holyfield?Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 09:38 Did Ali have a better win than Holyfield ? Great win for Bowe, but the answer is yes.
Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Don't know anyone who has Bowe in their top 10.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 13:12
He had comparably more convincing performances than Chuvalo and Mildenberger. Umm, ok. so what. He won almost every round in those fights. Showed phenomenal speed, reflexes, and great accuracy in those fights.
Patterson was past his best when he fought Ali? Even if you go with that, he still was much faster than Bowe. Ellis, Young, and Jones were faster than Bowe. Didn't say they were better.
Foreman and Frazier were bigger wins. Certainly arguable. However. Ali was past his prime when he did that; Bowe was in his prime himself when he beat Holyfield.
I actually rank Bowe higher than a lot of people. I have him around #15 all time. Some people don't even think he is close to the top 20.
However, he simply was not as good as Ali.
Patterson was past his best when he fought Ali? Even if you go with that, he still was much faster than Bowe. Ellis, Young, and Jones were faster than Bowe. Didn't say they were better.
Foreman and Frazier were bigger wins. Certainly arguable. However. Ali was past his prime when he did that; Bowe was in his prime himself when he beat Holyfield.
I actually rank Bowe higher than a lot of people. I have him around #15 all time. Some people don't even think he is close to the top 20.
However, he simply was not as good as Ali.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 13:43
As if I'm telling, that it wasn't like that. Just weren't his flawless performances, there he had some struggles. They were named in the context of Bowe-Tubbs fight, mentioned above, about which similar things can be said.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 He had comparably more convincing performances than Chuvalo and Mildenberger. Umm, ok. so what. He won almost every round in those fights. Showed phenomenal speed, reflexes, and great accuracy in those fights.
And they weren't just worse, but levels below.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 Patterson was past his best when he fought Ali? Even if you go with that, he still was much faster than Bowe. Ellis, Young, and Jones were faster than Bowe. Didn't say they were better.
Holyfield win was bigger. Despite all the greatness of Frazier and Foreman, Holyfield was objectively better as a boxer and should be above those historically.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 Foreman and Frazier were bigger wins. Certainly arguable. However. Ali was past his prime when he did that; Bowe was in his prime himself when he beat Holyfield.
He's #12 in my list. And he certainly had tools to defeat Ali. If they fought not for a single time, both would have wins.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 I actually rank Bowe higher than a lot of people. I have him around #15 all time. Some people don't even think he is close to the top 20.
However, he simply was not as good as Ali.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 14:03
Also, I think the size argument is overstated. Riddick carried quite a bit of excess fat. I would say George Foreman was a naturally bigger man than Bowe with more muscle mass. Bowe even in the 220s is not as shredded as Foreman at 224.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 15:07
Nobody is going to come on and say that a young Ali would have any problems with Bowe. Clearly he would win and win comfortably, probably winning every round en route to a stoppage or UD. However, when he started sitting on ropes later in his career, that is just not the same Ali. He was willing to sit on the ropes and absorb Foremans output when Foreman was well known and feared as a puncher. Therefore he would most likely use the same strategy vs Bowe as he didn't have the legs to fight the way he used to. It's a nightmare style match up for Ali at this point. Bowe would absolutely tear him up in brutal fashion and I have no doubt there would be a stoppage in favour of Riddick.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 16:59
I don't know why, but with Ali we always have to compare how he would have done when he was past his best against someone else in their prime.
He wasn't "flawless" but he was the greatest heavyweight to ever lace up the gloves in his prime.
Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have beaten Bowe. Bowe would have had trouble hitting him because Ali could move so well. On the other hand, Ali was a very accurate puncher with phenomenal hand speed who would have had very little trouble dealing Bowe's mediocre defense. If they would have fought 5 times during this period, Ali would have beaten him 5 times.
But for the period that is interesting, here we go:
Ali from say 1970-1975 vs a prime Bowe would have been much more competitive. Ali was for awhile, and occasionally was just off after that. That version of Bowe would have been able to land much more often. Bowe would have a serious chance here. The that lost to Norton for example? Would have to pick Bowe. The Ali that beat Foreman? Would have to pick Ali.
Anyone else think Bowe was #12 all time? I think I have him higher than many people and I think that is pushing it.
He wasn't "flawless" but he was the greatest heavyweight to ever lace up the gloves in his prime.
Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have beaten Bowe. Bowe would have had trouble hitting him because Ali could move so well. On the other hand, Ali was a very accurate puncher with phenomenal hand speed who would have had very little trouble dealing Bowe's mediocre defense. If they would have fought 5 times during this period, Ali would have beaten him 5 times.
But for the period that is interesting, here we go:
Ali from say 1970-1975 vs a prime Bowe would have been much more competitive. Ali was for awhile, and occasionally was just off after that. That version of Bowe would have been able to land much more often. Bowe would have a serious chance here. The that lost to Norton for example? Would have to pick Bowe. The Ali that beat Foreman? Would have to pick Ali.
Anyone else think Bowe was #12 all time? I think I have him higher than many people and I think that is pushing it.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 18:44
Pretty sure this is the same guy with the haye was faster than Roy Jones nonsense. He'd rather die than admit he's wrong. The subject changes are rapid and random.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 He had comparably more convincing performances than Chuvalo and Mildenberger. Umm, ok. so what. He won almost every round in those fights. Showed phenomenal speed, reflexes, and great accuracy in those fights.
Patterson was past his best when he fought Ali? Even if you go with that, he still was much faster than Bowe. Ellis, Young, and Jones were faster than Bowe. Didn't say they were better.
Foreman and Frazier were bigger wins. Certainly arguable. However. Ali was past his prime when he did that; Bowe was in his prime himself when he beat Holyfield.
I actually rank Bowe higher than a lot of people. I have him around #15 all time. Some people don't even think he is close to the top 20.
However, he simply was not as good as Ali.
Ellis is faster than Bowe.
No way Ellis could eat more chicken than Bowe!!!!
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 19:07
Now compare the opposition of Ali in 1971 and during those mouthwatering for you in every Ali thread 1964-1967s and try to guess, why Ali's "prime" was exactly in 1964-1967. Frazier alone costs everyone there. Ali has never faced an opponent of Bowe's caliber.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 16:59 I don't know why, but with Ali we always have to compare how he would have done when he was past his best against someone else in their prime.
He wasn't "flawless" but he was the greatest heavyweight to ever lace up the gloves in his prime.
Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have beaten Bowe. Bowe would have had trouble hitting him because Ali could move so well. On the other hand, Ali was a very accurate puncher with phenomenal hand speed who would have had very little trouble dealing Bowe's mediocre defense. If they would have fought 5 times during this period, Ali would have beaten him 5 times.
But for the period that is interesting, here we go:
Ali from say 1970-1975 vs a prime Bowe would have been much more competitive. Ali was for awhile, and occasionally was just off after that. That version of Bowe would have been able to land much more often. Bowe would have a serious chance here. The that lost to Norton for example? Would have to pick Bowe. The Ali that beat Foreman? Would have to pick Ali.
Anyone else think Bowe was #12 all time? I think I have him higher than many people and I think that is pushing it.
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 19:11
I've never said, that Haye was faster than Jones, you are misinterpretating that comparing of Haye and Jones particularly at the heavyweight division.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 18:44Pretty sure this is the same guy with the haye was faster than Roy Jones nonsense. He'd rather die than admit he's wrong. The subject changes are rapid and random.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 13:12 He had comparably more convincing performances than Chuvalo and Mildenberger. Umm, ok. so what. He won almost every round in those fights. Showed phenomenal speed, reflexes, and great accuracy in those fights.
Patterson was past his best when he fought Ali? Even if you go with that, he still was much faster than Bowe. Ellis, Young, and Jones were faster than Bowe. Didn't say they were better.
Foreman and Frazier were bigger wins. Certainly arguable. However. Ali was past his prime when he did that; Bowe was in his prime himself when he beat Holyfield.
I actually rank Bowe higher than a lot of people. I have him around #15 all time. Some people don't even think he is close to the top 20.
However, he simply was not as good as Ali.
Ellis is faster than Bowe.
No way Ellis could eat more chicken than Bowe!!!!
Re: Heavyweights : Muhammad Ali vs. Riddick Bowe
Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 19:26
DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 19:11I've never said, that Haye was faster than Jones, you are misinterpretating that comparing of Haye and Jones particularly at the heavyweight division.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 18:44
Pretty sure this is the same guy with the haye was faster than Roy Jones nonsense. He'd rather die than admit he's wrong. The subject changes are rapid and random.
Ellis is faster than Bowe.
No way Ellis could eat more chicken than Bowe!!!!