BoxRec

First let me say this is not a racist statement by any means since it is evident that Wilder and Joshua are black and Fury and Ruiz are white (no, Mexican is not a race). Secondly, the adage "Great White Hope" is one of the oldest in Boxing History and probably dates back to Jack Johnson. Two established, feared, and respected black champions beaten down and stopped in most brutal fashion. Just curious as to why we have seen a racial shift at the Heavyweight division. I think about all the greats, from Jack Johnson, to Ali, Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis and many more. How is this shift possible. Is it just luck ?

Go down to Mexico and tell 'em they're all White people and that Latino or Hispanic is not a race, and let me know how that goes for ya

I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

For a great part of modern boxing history it's been a sport for the poor in big population centers. Especially in the states its fairly easy to track the rise and fall of Irish, Italians, Jews, etc in the sport as they settled in to American life and got out of the ghetto so to speak. Relative prosperity and lack of opportunity (the best boxing gyms pop up where the demand is...big population centers with lots of poor kids) likely held back white fighters in America for several decades.

While the midwest was pumping out great wrestlers left, right, and center there were very few boxers. They're different sports, I'm not making that comparison, but rather showing how kids craving "combat sports" went with whatever was most freely available to them. The rise of MMA showed that combat sport prowess has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the individual and the access they have to good training. In 2000, for example, RING's top ten HW boxers had 7 blacks and 2 whites. SHERDOG's top ten HW MMA had 6 whites and 1 black. MMA lent itself more to what young white kids had access to over boxing.

The "need" (for whoever actually cares about that garbage) for a great white hope ended when the Eatsern Bloc began pumping out pros like hot cakes. It's a very antiquated term and doesn't really have a place in the sport anymore considering the top of the HW division has been largely held by whites for like 20 years.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:14 I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

Never thought this argument held much weight. Probably none of the boxing greats could have been great at team sports and vice versa. Holyfield mostly stood on the sidelines in HS football.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:12 Go down to Mexico and tell 'em they're all White people and that Latino or Hispanic is not a race, and let me know how that goes for ya

I don’t know. I know people from Mexico who would make the average “self proclaimed” white person look like a Romanian Gypsy. Trying to say that canelo is not white and that Luis Ortiz is not black is nonsense even though they are both Latino.

There was a guy here telling me that Luis Ortiz is not black, and that it was racism motivating some people to complain about Wilder getting the 'time out' in their first fight

Luckybattles wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 17:50

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:12 Go down to Mexico and tell 'em they're all White people and that Latino or Hispanic is not a race, and let me know how that goes for ya

I don’t know. I know people from Mexico who would make the average “self proclaimed” white person look like a Romanian Gypsy. Trying to say that canelo is not white and that Luis Ortiz is not black is nonsense even though they are both Latino.

I'm just saying they don't identify as White people, and would likely be offended as all hell at being categorized as such. Personally I think people put more thought into race and all that sh*t than it's worth, but that's a problem for the whole human race to resolve for itself, and I sure ain't the guy to fix it

I think black Americans are just softer than eastern European fighters now , some of those Russians have had a tough life

I dunno bro, sounds pretty racist to me

Luckybattles wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 15:47 First let me say this is not a racist statement by any means since it is evident that Wilder and Joshua are black and Fury and Ruiz are white (no, Mexican is not a race). Secondly, the adage "Great White Hope" is one of the oldest in Boxing History and probably dates back to Jack Johnson. Two established, feared, and respected black champions beaten down and stopped in most brutal fashion. Just curious as to why we have seen a racial shift at the Heavyweight division. I think about all the greats, from Jack Johnson, to Ali, Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis and many more. How is this shift possible. Is it just luck ?

This shift is not American. It's British and Eastern European. Part of it is the breakdown of the Iron Curtain. Guys like Povetkin and Pulev are contenders but not the top.

But before we get carried away with the "shift," we're really only talking about 3 guys and two are brothers and the other one won last night.

Blacks are getting softer. I’m seeing that in the NBA as well. Seems like nobody can take a hard foul nowadays

Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 18:07 But before we get carried away with the "shift," we're really only talking about 3 guys and two are brothers and the other one won last night.

A shift wouldn't just mean at the very top. There have been more good (within the context of their own era) white fighters in the past 20 years than in the 40 years preceding that. It has nothing to do with race, however, but more with socioeconomic factors and opportunity.

What a ridiculous pudendum you are

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 17:56

Luckybattles wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 17:50

I don’t know. I know people from Mexico who would make the average “self proclaimed” white person look like a Romanian Gypsy. Trying to say that canelo is not white and that Luis Ortiz is not black is nonsense even though they are both Latino.

I'm just saying they don't identify as White people, and would likely be offended as all hell at being categorized as such. Personally I think people put more thought into race and all that sh*t than it's worth, but that's a problem for the whole human race to resolve for itself, and I sure ain't the guy to fix it

People are stupid though. The way Latino is labelled as a race shits me to tears tbh. You’re either mixed race, European, Native American or black/African. The fact that they speak languages that evolved from Latin has fornicate all to do with their race. Pet peeve of mine.

And yeah Canelo is Caucasian as fornicate.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:14 I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

That is a fact. Boxing used to be more lucrative, but Basketball and Football salaries and endorsement deals have skyrocketed.

Malcolm Gladwell author of "Outliers" and other books talks about how specific groups excel in certain areas due to economic factors and conditioning.

p4p1 wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 19:17

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 17:56

I'm just saying they don't identify as White people, and would likely be offended as all hell at being categorized as such. Personally I think people put more thought into race and all that sh*t than it's worth, but that's a problem for the whole human race to resolve for itself, and I sure ain't the guy to fix it

People are stupid though. The way Latino is labelled as a race shits me to tears tbh. You’re either mixed race, European, Native American or black/African. The fact that they speak languages that evolved from Latin has fornicate all to do with their race. Pet peeve of mine.

And yeah Canelo is Caucasian as fornicate.

The fact you care so much about what race another person considers themselves makes you one stupid racist pudendum. Life’s too short, couldn’t give too fvcks what race another person is and it’s no concern of mine

So what would Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes etc been pro at? Baseball? Point Guards? Running backs?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 20:34 So what would Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes etc been pro at? Baseball? Point Guards? Running backs?

Never really thought about it.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 20:34 So what would Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes etc been pro at? Baseball? Point Guards? Running backs?

They wouldent have to actuly make it as a pro to stop them from being the boxers they were. Just put there time growing up into it rather than boxing.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 18:07

Luckybattles wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 15:47 First let me say this is not a racist statement by any means since it is evident that Wilder and Joshua are black and Fury and Ruiz are white (no, Mexican is not a race). Secondly, the adage "Great White Hope" is one of the oldest in Boxing History and probably dates back to Jack Johnson. Two established, feared, and respected black champions beaten down and stopped in most brutal fashion. Just curious as to why we have seen a racial shift at the Heavyweight division. I think about all the greats, from Jack Johnson, to Ali, Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis and many more. How is this shift possible. Is it just luck ?

This shift is not American. It's British and Eastern European. Part of it is the breakdown of the Iron Curtain. Guys like Povetkin and Pulev are contenders but not the top.

But before we get carried away with the "shift," we're really only talking about 3 guys and two are brothers and the other one won last night.

I personally don't rank Hughie all that highly, but who is the third?

Edit: oh wait they are cousins, my joke was bad enough already, but straight up doesn't work

I wonder if any of those guys specifically , or Tyson , Holy etc woulda done other sports instead though. I'm sure they all playd ball at some point, perhaps boxing had a draw on them that none others could have. Or you have a guy like Tyson who was pretty much placed into boxing

Of course Lennox is the best HW in decades and he wasn't American

There aren't many Black Hopes left in any division. Boxing is international now. The days of the African Americano monolpolia are over and they only lasted 3 decades or so.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 21:50 I wonder if any of those guys specifically , or Tyson , Holy etc woulda done other sports instead though. I'm sure they all playd ball at some point, perhaps boxing had a draw on them that none others could have. Or you have a guy like Tyson who was pretty much placed into boxing

Yeah, it's a generic argument. More factors at play. Holyfield probably the most athletic HW outside of Ali and he barely got called on to play HS ball. Funnily enough, one of his sons had a good year at UGA.