BoxRec

i was looking through the late Mike Paul's all-time heavyweight rankings in the hope of updating to present day and also maybe doing some other divisions.

How do they stack up for the heavyweights in your opinion. These were his last ratings towards the end of 2005

1. Joe Louis (1)
2. Muhammad Ali (2)
3. James J. Jeffries (7)
4. Rocky Marciano (5)
5. Lennox Lewis (12)
6= Sonny Liston (9)
6=. Gene Tunney (11)
6= Mike Tyson (13)
9 Larry Holmes (6)
10 George Foreman (8)
11 Joe Frazier (10)
12 Jack Dempsey (4)
13 Jack Johnson (3)
14 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
15 Max Baer (just missed cut)
16 Ezzard Charles (17)
17 Jack Sharkey (just missed cut)
18 Peter Jackson (just missed cut)
19 Sam Langford (15)
20 Evander Holyfield (14)

Based on 26,292 fights in his database

I have put the IBRO's heavyweight all-time list at March 2005 in brackets next to the names

Ones that missed the cut who were on IBRO's list Jersey Joe Walcott, Harry Wills and James J Corbett

What do people think?

Pretty poor. The disrespect for holy and adulation for Tyson on lists kill me. That's the tip of the iceberg with issues here, but the most ridiculous.

Bob Fitzsimmons is a marvel that he could even compete as a 160-170 pound man in the heavyweight division. But, truth be told, it's not like he had a lot of sustained success there. Fitzsimmons deserves a place as an all time great middleweight, but he is misplaced as an all time great heavyweight.

jas80s wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 15:59 Bob Fitzsimmons is a marvel that he could even compete as a 160-170 pound man in the heavyweight division. But, truth be told, it's not like he had a lot of sustained success there. Fitzsimmons deserves a place as an all time great middleweight, but he is misplaced as an all time great heavyweight.

Tunney too, two wins over Dempsey is clearly noteworthy but you see him so high, Michael spinks wouldn't make most top 40's.

I don't have a major problem with any these guys being in the top 20. However, obviously there are problems the order.

Right off the bat, Holyfield at #20 is ridiculous. He is clearly in the top 10.

I have Ali #1 and Louis #2. After that it gets tricky. there are several guys you could argue for #3. Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Johnson, Lewis, Holyfield are all ball park. After that, Marciano, Dempsey, Jeffries, Liston, Tyson are all fairly close. Tunney is a bit behind them. He did have a lot more fights against heavyweights than some people realize.

After that, there are a lot of guys fairly close, some such as Baer, Sharkey, Charles etc. are in this list of top 20. You could also make decent arguments for guys like McVey, Jeannette, Schmeling, Walcott, and Norton. Obviously some close calls.

Probably never going to find two people who have it exactly the same; but obviously this lsit has some major problems. Always fun to discuss though!

In the same IBRO polls (Early 2005) Tunney was 4th and Fitzsimmons 8th in Light-Heavyweights, Fitzsimmons was also 8th in Middleweights

In their latest polls (late 2019) Tunney has dropped down to 14th in the Heavyweights but is 3rd in Light-Heavyweight. Fitzsimmons is 11th in Light-Heavy and 7th in Middlweight, and is now outside of the top twenty and heavyweight.

They have Tyson and Holyfield 11th and 12th in 2019.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 16:30 I don't have a major problem with any these guys being in the top 20. However, obviously there are problems the order.

Right off the bat, Holyfield at #20 is ridiculous. He is clearly in the top 10.

I have Ali #1 and Louis #2. After that it gets tricky. there are several guys you could argue for #3. Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Johnson, Lewis, Holyfield are all ball park. After that, Marciano, Dempsey, Jeffries, Liston, Tyson are all fairly close. Tunney is a bit behind them. He did have a lot more fights against heavyweights than some people realize.

After that, there are a lot of guys fairly close, some such as Baer, Sharkey, Charles etc. are in this list of top 20. You could also make decent arguments for guys like McVey, Jeannette, Schmeling, Walcott, and Norton. Obviously some close calls.

Probably never going to find two people who have it exactly the same; but obviously this lsit has some major problems. Always fun to discuss though!

IBRO All Time Heavyweight Rankings - December 2019

Heavyweight Results
Muhammad Ali (603)
Joe Louis (586)
Jack Dempsey (467)
Larry Holmes (452)
George Foreman (447)
Jack Johnson (432)
Rocky Marciano (412)
Sonny Liston (382)
Lennox Lewis (361)
Joe Frazier (349)
Mike Tyson (276)
Evander Holyfield (271)
James J Jeffries (264)
Gene Tunney (226)
Sam Langford (171)
Ezzard Charles (120)
Jersey Joe Walcott (88)
Wladimir Klitschko (86)
Vitaly Klitschko (83)
Riddick Bowe (71)

Other than the top two spots the list appears almost to be randomly generated.

the first list does. It's almost like they just drew them out of a hat. btw- I should have mentioned Bowe earlier. He is the biggest omission of the original list.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:09 the first list does. It's almost like they just drew them out of a hat. btw- I should have mentioned Bowe earlier. He is the biggest omission of the original list.

He didn't sustain a prime long enough to make the list, or at least in the top 10.

Not top 10, but he has to be in the top 20.

On Mike Paul's list - Schmeling 21, Bowe 22 as end of October 2005.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:18 Not top 10, but he has to be in the top 20.

Why?

Well, for starters he beat a prime Evander Holyfield. Very few fighters have a better win. His only loss was to Holyfield. Almost everyone has had more losses and losses to much worse fighters. Even that fight went to a close decision that could have gone his way.
When you weigh the positives against the negatives, there simply aren't many fighters who surpassed what he did.
On film, he looks more impressive than many of the guys listed.

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:18 Not top 10, but he has to be in the top 20.

Why?

Bowe was considered best in the world 92-96 which is longer than many on the list. He was beating contenders throughout that time. It's ridiculous to not include him in a top 20

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:18 Not top 10, but he has to be in the top 20.

definitive

Why?

He beat a definitive top 10 guy twice. That goes a long way.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Apr 2020, 04:42

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Apr 2020, 17:41 definitive

Why?

He beat a definitive top 10 guy twice. That goes a long way.

Two great all time wins. It gets him in the discussion, but he did little else, don't ya think?

oogiebe wrote: ↑05 Apr 2020, 18:57

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Apr 2020, 04:42

He beat a definitive top 10 guy twice. That goes a long way.

Two great all time wins. It gets him in the discussion, but he did little else, don't ya think?

Tubbs and seldon are decent wins, but heavyweight isn't a very deep division. Going to 20 ain't easy. 3 really good results against evander and no negative results in your career is pretty good. Better than anyone since Lennox by a good margin.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 00:38

oogiebe wrote: ↑05 Apr 2020, 18:57

Two great all time wins. It gets him in the discussion, but he did little else, don't ya think?

Tubbs and seldon are decent wins, but heavyweight isn't a very deep division. Going to 20 ain't easy. 3 really good results against evander and no negative results in your career is pretty good. Better than anyone since Lennox by a good margin.

His performances vs Golota weren't exactly positive. At his best he was terrific.

Donald, Hide and Gonzalez on the trot was good. Deontay's only undefeated opponent (that he was able to beat) was a 40 year old.

Onamastus wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 15:54 Donald, Hide and Gonzalez on the trot was good. Deontay's only undefeated opponent (that he was able to beat) was a 40 year old.

Deontay? Who's talking about Wilder? Also DW beat other undefeated fighters, if I'm not mistaken.

Bowe doesn't have a very impressive resume outside Holy, but it's good enough that when taken with those Holy wins he does belong in a list like this. It's just extremely hard to find enough guys to rank ahead of him who either have better best win or so much depth that they push him out

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 15:56

Onamastus wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 15:54 Donald, Hide and Gonzalez on the trot was good. Deontay's only undefeated opponent (that he was able to beat) was a 40 year old.

Deontay? Who's talking about Wilder? Also DW beat other undefeated fighters, if I'm not mistaken.

He probably did. I couldn't be bothered checking tbh. But as Ambling Alp said, Bowe looks better on film than a lot of the men on that list. Combined with the Holyfield trilogy, that's impressive. He was out of shape for Golota and paid the price.

Onamastus wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 16:06

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 15:56

Deontay? Who's talking about Wilder? Also DW beat other undefeated fighters, if I'm not mistaken.

He probably did. I couldn't be bothered checking tbh. But as Ambling Alp said, Bowe looks better on film than a lot of the men on that list. Combined with the Holyfield trilogy, that's impressive. He was out of shape for Golota and paid the price.

out of shape doesn't mean we discount those two fights. Bowe's short prime was due to a lack of heart and discipline. Two things that go into making an ATG.

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 16:08

Onamastus wrote: ↑06 Apr 2020, 16:06

He probably did. I couldn't be bothered checking tbh. But as Ambling Alp said, Bowe looks better on film than a lot of the men on that list. Combined with the Holyfield trilogy, that's impressive. He was out of shape for Golota and paid the price.

out of shape doesn't mean we discount those two fights. Bowe's short prime was due to a lack of heart and discipline. Two things that go into making an ATG.

Bowe lack of heart? You can't have seen the Golota fights!

Discipline? Better take Tyson out of the top 100