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I consider Floyd Patterson to be a greater fighter than Jimmy Ellis, but I consider Ellis to be right behind Patterson.They both were heavyweight champions, WBA in the case of Ellis, and I believe that both men could have won the light heavyweight title and could have held that title for many years.

My question is what heavyweight champions or light heavyweight champions would be in between Patterson and Ellis on an all time list? My one guess would be Ingemar Johansson, if he was greater than Ellis.

Thoughts?

I don't think you can really know at light heavy, especially since Ellis pretty much skipped though that weight class.

At heavy Johannson is a good choice. A bit behind Patterson, a bit ahead of Ellis.
Here are some other names to consider: Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson and Michael Spinks.

Maybe I should have said cruiserweight. Both Patterson and Ellis would have been perfect for that weight class.

I believe that they both could have stayed in the light heavyweight division if they wanted to. The heavyweight division has always been the more lucrative division.

Cus D'Amato used to feed Patterson steaks every night to build him up to heavyweight. I think that Angelo Dundee would have just as soon had Ellis fight as a light heavyweight, especially being that he had Ali as his main heavyweight, but Ellis wanted to fight heavyweight.

Looking at the records of Floyd and Jimmy, it looks to me like Ellis could have beaten anyone that Patterson beat, possible exception of Johansson.

Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jackson fought so long ago that it is difficult to compare them to the more modern fighters. Not sure how Spinks compares to Patterson.

Spinks is pretty clearly greater than Patterson to me. I don't really get the light heavy part past that I agree both could have been good there. Ellis went straight to heavy and I can't think of any major Floyd fights at 75. With my confusion an all time bridge between the two I'd say Maxim.

I think that most people would have Michael Spinks above Patterson.

Maxim might be a good choice. Below Patterson, but maybe above Ellis.

At heavyweight, most people would have Spinks above Patterson? I dunno. Spinks only had 5 fights the weight. A lot of people only think of the Tyson fight when rating him at heavyweight. I think he is hard to rate at that weight class.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2020, 16:51 At heavyweight, most people would have Spinks above Patterson? I dunno. Spinks only had 5 fights the weight. A lot of people only think of the Tyson fight when rating him at heavyweight. I think he is hard to rate at that weight class.

I would like it if Patterson was rated above Spinks because Floyd was my favorite. Trouble is, I think that if a poll of boxing fans was taken, I believe that the majority would have Michael over Floyd. Hope I am wrong.

spinks above floyd is a joke!

patterson went thru the division like a knife thru hot butter with his bob & weave & ridiculous hand speed.

not only was he the youngest heavy champ ever at the time, he went undefeated with a streak of brutal k.o's until the loss vs. johansson.


after that he regrouped and in the re- & rubber match fvcked up the deadly punching swede for good in spectacular fashion.

he actually only lost clearly twice to ali & liston in fights where he was chancelessly overpowered by much larger but equally if differently gifted men.

in his loss vs. ellis for the wba championship he got by almost all accounts FVCKED by the refree/sole judge in a fight he dominated.

his other losses against quarry & early on maxim were also controversial to say the least.

patterson is a heavyweight legend. periold. if you have to rank him, he's top 10 -15 definitely.

looking at his stellar career how anyone comes to the idea he should've fought at light heavy is idiotic beyond any reason.

one IF NOT THE the fastest hands at heavyweight EVER. 40+ knockouts.

you don't have a glass chin if ingo, Liston & Ali (ali 30 pounds heavier than floyd couldn't finish him in the rematch) are the only men that did best you.

I am glad that people feel that way about Patterson. He was always my favorite.

Maybe people would favor Floyd in a poll vs Spinks. Maybe we ought to have one.

Scypion wrote: ↑08 Apr 2020, 22:41 I consider Floyd Patterson to be a greater fighter than Jimmy Ellis, but I consider Ellis to be right behind Patterson.They both were heavyweight champions, WBA in the case of Ellis, and I believe that both men could have won the light heavyweight title and could have held that title for many years.

My question is what heavyweight champions or light heavyweight champions would be in between Patterson and Ellis on an all time list? My one guess would be Ingemar Johansson, if he was greater than Ellis.

Thoughts?

BTW, I never said that Patterson should have stayed in the light heavyweight division. I said that both Patterson and Ellis COULD have won the light heavyweight title and held it for many years.

Both Patterson and Ellis could have been very good light heavyweights. May have been interesting to see Ellis against Bob Foster.
As for Patterson and Spinks, they were two of the most likable fighters ever.
I guess I would lean towards Spinks at heavyweight. Rating them at heavyweight, though, I would have to give Patterson the edge.

I take it you meant you would lean toward Spinks at light heavyweight.

I should not have specified champions. I don't think I meant champions. All heavyweights that would/could be between Patterson and Ellis. I was going to suggest Eddie Machen.

I think that Prime Patterson would beat prime Machen. Not sure about Ellis.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Apr 2020, 18:25 Both Patterson and Ellis could have been very good light heavyweights. May have been interesting to see Ellis against Bob Foster.
As for Patterson and Spinks, they were two of the most likable fighters ever.
I guess I would lean towards Spinks at heavyweight. Rating them at heavyweight, though, I would have to give Patterson the edge.

I agree that Ellis vs Foster would be a good one to watch. I wonder if anyone ever discussed arranging such a bout.

At heavyweight I would go with Ellis over Foster. At light heavyweight, I would still go with Ellis, but not as strongly.

I too am a big Patterson fan. I don't agree that the Ellis fight was an absolute robbery, Floyd should have taken it easily but he mixed up moments of control with inactivity which cst him in a CLOSE fight IMO. I have watched it many times and I'm exasperated everytime that Patterson dis not push on for a clear win.
I do however rate him above Ellis. Whowould I rate between them? Quarry maybe, Johansson for sure, how about Moore?

mattdonnellon wrote: ↑12 Apr 2020, 19:25 I too am a big Patterson fan. I don't agree that the Ellis fight was an absolute robbery, Floyd should have taken it easily but he mixed up moments of control with inactivity which cst him in a CLOSE fight IMO. I have watched it many times and I'm exasperated everytime that Patterson dis not push on for a clear win.
I do however rate him above Ellis. Whowould I rate between them? Quarry maybe, Johansson for sure, how about Moore?

Interesting post. I can see how some people might think that Ellis really did win his bout with Patterson. Of course, Floyd was 33 when they fought and Ellis was 28.

Moore could be a good choice. He was over 40 when he fought Patterson. Not sure if Ellis could beat a prime mongoose.

Ellis did beat Quarry in a pretty dull fight, but Jerry beat Floyd in a controversial decision and had a draw with him.

Big question here is could Ellis beat Ingo 2 out of 3 like Floyd did? Maybe if he was well aware of Ingo's big right hand.

Scypion wrote: ↑11 Apr 2020, 21:56 I take it you meant you would lean toward Spinks at light heavyweight.

I should not have specified champions. I don't think I meant champions. All heavyweights that would/could be between Patterson and Ellis. I was going to suggest Eddie Machen.

I think that Prime Patterson would beat prime Machen. Not sure about Ellis.

No, I meant I would lean towards Spinks against Patterson in a head to head fight at heavyweight.
I would still rate Patterson slightly at heavyweight higher because Spinks only had 5 fights at heavyweight.

At 175, we are guessing. We could use the young Patterson, but that probably would not be fair to Patterson. We can only guess how good he would have been at light heavy if he stayed there.

I rate Spinks as the greatest light heavyweight ever.

Spinks is right up there as far as light heavyweights go. My choice would be Charles as the greatest in that division

Here is a strange one: Anyone that watched the Patterson-Ellis fight could see that Ellis was bigger than Patterson. Yet, Patterson turned pro at 17 and fought light heavyweight for awhile and Ellis turned pro at 21 and fought middleweight for awhile.

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Apr 2020, 17:51

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Apr 2020, 18:25 Both Patterson and Ellis could have been very good light heavyweights. May have been interesting to see Ellis against Bob Foster.
As for Patterson and Spinks, they were two of the most likable fighters ever.
I guess I would lean towards Spinks at heavyweight. Rating them at heavyweight, though, I would have to give Patterson the edge.

I agree that Ellis vs Foster would be a good one to watch. I wonder if anyone ever discussed arranging such a bout.

At heavyweight I would go with Ellis over Foster. At light heavyweight, I would still go with Ellis, but not as strongly.

Bob Foster was stopped in fights with Ali, Frazier, Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, and Doug Jones, all good heavyweights. Foster was a devastating hitter with light heavyweights, but not so much against heavyweights. That is why I am pretty sure that Jimmy Ellis would beat Bob Foster at heavyweight.

Foster would have had a better chance to beat Ellis at light heavyweight. Ellis had a pretty good chin and it took guys like Frazier, Ali, and Shavers to stop him. So, at light heavyweight, I also go with Ellis, but not as much of a certainty.

I have been a great Patterson fan since I first saw him fight, unfortunately the first Liston fight!! That fight caused me to follow him due to sympathy and his likeable mature.
A brief story. Well known London manager and trainer, Dennie Mancini told me this. He had been in Sweden on the night of the Ellis fight with a British boxer. He had met Patterson several times when he had been in London ,most recently for the Cooper fight in 1966. He knew him well.
Dennie said that in the airport the following morning he saw Patterson sitting alone in the departure lounge and went over to speak to him. Dennie said there was clearly something wrong with Patterson( mentally). He had no idea who Dennie was and could hardly string some words together. Dennie, reluctantly, thought he was 'punchy'.
However I've seen dozens of later interviews with Floyd when he was clearly very lucid, even long after he'd retired and was training his adopted son.
By the way in October last year I surprisingly won at auction a pair of Patterson gloves from a fight in NYC. Since I've got them I've done much more research and I strongly believe they might have been worn in his last fight with Ali.

Maybe Floyd did not have his morning coffee yet.

dalcumly wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 06:36 I have been a great Patterson fan since I first saw him fight, unfortunately the first Liston fight!! That fight caused me to follow him due to sympathy and his likeable mature.
A brief story. Well known London manager and trainer, Dennie Mancini told me this. He had been in Sweden on the night of the Ellis fight with a British boxer. He had met Patterson several times when he had been in London ,most recently for the Cooper fight in 1966. He knew him well.
Dennie said that in the airport the following morning he saw Patterson sitting alone in the departure lounge and went over to speak to him. Dennie said there was clearly something wrong with Patterson( mentally). He had no idea who Dennie was and could hardly string some words together. Dennie, reluctantly, thought he was 'punchy'.
However I've seen dozens of later interviews with Floyd when he was clearly very lucid, even long after he'd retired and was training his adopted son.
By the way in October last year I surprisingly won at auction a pair of Patterson gloves from a fight in NYC. Since I've got them I've done much more research and I strongly believe they might have been worn in his last fight with Ali.

Actually, I can see that. Patterson. probably after not getting much sleep and after going 15 rounds with Ellis the night before, might have not been very sharp in the airport.

I can see me being not quite myself after going 15 rounds the night before, taking some hits, and only getting a few hours sleep.

To get back on track.
Early Patterson fights as a light heavy are readily available to view. He was a real handful for anyone. Threw punches non stop, if he caught you clean you went! Maxim beat him, but I've watched it and I thought Patterson won, but it was close. That fight showed more about how good a boxer Maxim was even on the way down
If Patterson had stayed at light heavy, and I think it might have been possible, he'd have been a world champ for as long as he wanted. Ellis was quality but he never fought at the weight so it's hard to judge, but my guess is he'd have been too slow for Patterson.

It may have hard for Patterson to make 175. If he did, he might not be at his best. Had he stayed at the weight, it might have been interesting. I don't think he would have dominated. He could have fought Archie Moore at light heavy, instead of heavyweight. Not sure how Patterson would have done against Harold Johnson, or Bob Foster later.

Guessing Ellis would have been pretty good at light heavy. however, at a certain point, he would not have been able to make the weight.

Patterson's manager would feed him steaks every night to build him up to heavyweight, so I think he could have stayed at light heavyweight. Patterson weighed 178 for his heavyweight title elimination bout with Hurricane Jackson.

In the Maxim fight, eleven sportswriters at ringside all said that they thought Patterson won as did the AP and UP.

Ellis wasn't as fast as Patterson or Ali, but he was faster than any other heavyweight from that era as far as I know.

Prime Patterson beats prime Ellis at heavyweight or light heavyweight, IMO. However, I believe that Ellis could have won the Light heavyweight title assuming that Patterson stays at heavyweight. I believe that Ellis could have beaten any light heavyweight of that era. The toughest would be Foster, but I think Ellis beats him too although it would be tougher at light heavyweight.